Does anyone use Nandrolone (Deca Durabolin) ?

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slicktop said:
I'd have to dig up my exact numbers, but basically on daily injections of 20mg of test enanthate (140 a week), I was at total t of ~820 and free t was around 19. I had to take anastrozole 2x a week to keep my estrogen in the low 30's, which is consistently the highest I can get it without side effects. That was a significant improvement over every other day or every 3.5 days on cypionate at any dosage. Anyways, switching to daily 16 mg of test enanthate plus 16mg of nandrolone has me around a total of about ~1000, but more importantly, my free t is around 22 and I don't need any AI to keep my estrogen at 30 or below, and I feel absolutely great. Mood is great, libido is strong, energy level is great, zero side effects. I'm happy happy happy. At 42 I can work out 2x a day (cardio first thing in the morning and resistance training in the late afternoon) and still keep up with the teenager, the toddler, the wife, and the dog... provided I get enough sleep!
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Were you taking anastrozole eod?is that what you meant?
 
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slicktop said:
I *think* the way my NP explained it to me was that the nandrolone bound to SHBG and androgen receptors more readily than testosterone, thereby "raising" free testosterone and total test simply because less of the test was binding at any given point. I do not believe that nandrolone shows up as test on bloodwork, but please don't take that as gospel. Hopefully one of the Defy guys will come along shortly and clarify/correct me here.
...
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Under TRT I'd guess that nandrolone is more likely to lower total testosterone, which would need to be measured using LC/MS technology. This would be from some combination of lower SHBG and the additional free testosterone you mention that is caused by displacement. Your numbers perhaps bear this out, because the predicted sum of nandrolone and testosterone with your new protocol is around 1,200 ng/dL. One possible confounding factor is the magnitude of cross-reactivity to nandrolone present in the standard testosterone test. Is it close to 100%, or is it actually less?
 
Cataceous said:
Under TRT I'd guess that nandrolone is more likely to lower total testosterone, which would need to be measured using LC/MS technology. This would be from some combination of lower SHBG and the additional free testosterone you mention that is caused by displacement. Your numbers perhaps bear this out, because the predicted sum of nandrolone and testosterone with your new protocol is around 1,200 ng/dL. One possible confounding factor is the magnitude of cross-reactivity to nandrolone present in the standard testosterone test. Is it close to 100%, or is it actually less?
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Personally, nandrolone increased my testosterone levels a lot.
 
What @Cataceous is trying to communicate is the difference between how your actual serum testosterone (total, free) levels change as a function of nandrolone usage VS what various tests (assays) report as your serum testosterone levels. There's a big difference and one has to be careful in order to differentiate the two.

Different immunoassays may suffer from various amounts of interference. The LC/MS test will physically separate and "fingerprint" testosterone using its unique molecular mass/charge signature so it won't suffer from this interference.

See for example.



Methodology

The ADVIA Centaur TSTII assay is a competitive immunoassay using direct chemiluminescent technology.


3. Samples from patients routinely receiving high-dose biotin therapy may show falsely elevated results. Additional information may be required for diagnosis. A strong interaction with Nandrolone decanoate, 11β-hydroxytestosterone, and 11-keto-testosterone was found. Do not use samples from patients receiving these compounds.






1602685035250.png
 
readalot said:
What @Cataceous is trying to communicate is the difference between how your actual serum testosterone (total, free) levels change as a function of nandrolone usage VS what various tests (assays) report as your serum testosterone levels. There's a big difference and one has to be careful in order to differentiate the two.

Different immunoassays may suffer from various amounts of interference. The LC/MS test will physically separate and "fingerprint" testosterone using its unique molecular mass/charge signature so it won't suffer from this interference.

See for example.



Methodology

The ADVIA Centaur TSTII assay is a competitive immunoassay using direct chemiluminescent technology.


3. Samples from patients routinely receiving high-dose biotin therapy may show falsely elevated results. Additional information may be required for diagnosis. A strong interaction with Nandrolone decanoate, 11β-hydroxytestosterone, and 11-keto-testosterone was found. Do not use samples from patients receiving these compounds.









View attachment 11133
Click to expand...


1602686316121.png


Too bad they didn't spike with a lower concentration of ND (or subsequently try a lower concentration). Spiking 100,000 ng/mL of ND doesn't give us much to go on :).


1602686048753.png
1602686086774.png


I can't find published data on any immunoassay where cross reactivity is greater than 10%, but maybe someone can point me to it.
 
Cataceous said:
Here's another statement—page 11—on nandrolone's cross-reactivity in an particular assay, mentioned in this thread. This one pegs nandrolone as "above the measuring interval", suggesting high cross-reactivity.
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Oh very nice, thank you very much for this. Really shows the variability on the cross reactivity.

Measuring interval for assay is 4.33 - 1500 ng/dL
30 nmol/L of nandrolone * 274.4 g/mol nandrolone * 1 L / 10 dL = 823.2 ng/dL of nandrolone

1500 ng/dL divided by 823.2 ng/dL implies at least 182% interference on the response factor.

Wow!

The reader can now see why so much confusion using testosterone immunoassays to characterize their testosterone levels while taking nandrolone. 2-182% cross reactivity is quite a range!

I give you two hands up @Cataceous (all 10 fingers).

Updated table:

1602699390438.png
 
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Survey is closing this Sunday. We have 120 people. Please participate if you are using or have used nandrolone. This information will be used as part of a thesis that explores the benefits of nandrolone to remove the stigma associated with this anabolic.

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Nandrolone Survey: Please Participate

Forwarding for a friend who is collecting data for his Doctorate. My name is Todd Kielman. I am a Physician Assistant and Sexual Medicine Specialist with emphasis on Men's Health and Hormone Replacement. In collaboration with Nelson Vergel, we are conducting a study into the use and...
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Fernando Almaguer said:
I think I have asked this before. My guess is no... but Does anyone know if nandrolone injections cause liver issues?
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When used with TRT, nandrolone (like all 17-alpha methylated anabolics) has the following effects on blood work and quality of life:
  1. Free T goes up
  2. HDL and triglycerides go down
  3. SHBG goes down
  4. DHT may or may not go up
  5. Hematocrit goes up
  6. Blood pressure and water retention may go up in some men
  7. Joint pain goes down (this effect is unique to nandrolone) Nandrolone, joint pain and tendon healing
  8. Prolactin stays the same (despite what you read everywhere- Prove me wrong!)
  9. Total T does not go up if you use LC/MS assay (Not ECLIA immunoassay)
  10. ED: No effect but the "deca-dick" myth is out there (You should always use TRT with nandrolone to prevent ED)
  11. Muscle pump improves
  12. Strength improves
  13. Water retention can get worse
  14. Appetite may increase
  15. No drug-induced liver enzyme changes. But be aware that resistance exercise can increase certain liver enzymes.

NOTE: If you get a testosterone test that uses the old immunoassay, nandrolone will be picked up as testosterone. Use the testosterone test based on liquid chromatography/ mass spectrometry.
 
Nelson Vergel said:
When used with TRT, nandrolone (like all 17-alpha methylated anabolics) has the following effects on blood work and quality of life:
  1. Free T goes up
  2. HDL and triglycerides go down
  3. SHBG goes down
  4. DHT may or may not go up
  5. Hematocrit goes up
  6. Blood pressure and water retention may go up in some men
  7. Joint pain goes down (this effect is unique to nandrolone) Nandrolone, joint pain and tendon healing
  8. Prolactin stays the same (despite what you read everywhere- Prove me wrong!)
  9. Total T does not go up if you use LC/MS assay (Not ECLIA immunoassay)
  10. ED: No effect but the "deca-dick" myth is out there (You should always use TRT with nandrolone to prevent ED)
  11. Muscle pump improves
  12. Strength improves
  13. Water retention can get worse
  14. Appetite may increase
  15. No drug-induced liver enzyme changes. But be aware that resistance exercise can increase certain liver enzymes.

NOTE: If you get a testosterone test that uses the old immunoassay, nandrolone will be picked up as testosterone. Use the testosterone test based on liquid chromatography/ mass spectrometry.
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16. Potential depression / anhedonia
17. Hypersexuality/mania
18 Beg to respectively differ on the DD/ED (worst combo of libido up and little Johnny down)
 
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