Anyone tried testosterone base (no ester)?

[Stanfoo]

Speaking about testosterone no ester in oil, not testosterone suspension which is water based.

I've only seen a few users here post about it, but they all mentioned they felt better on it compared to estered testosterone. Apparently you can get by injecting it once daily, due to the oil prolonging the absorption rate.

Has anyone tried testosterone base? Can you share your experiences?

 

[DS3]

It's okay. Bodybuilders sometimes use it an hour or so preworkout or when weeks out from competition to allow longer esters to clear their system to reduce water weight on stage. It's in quick and out quick. Once per day shots would create fairly dramatic peaks and valleys in T levels. I prefer Prop to oil-based suspension.

 

[Cataceous]

I've experimented with small doses used in addition to TRT. For me the results were very similar to what happens with scrotal testosterone cream added to TRT: there's a noticeable boost in libido for a few days, but it fades with continued use.

More recently I've been wondering if the pharmacokinetics of testosterone base is somewhat like that of nasal testosterone gel; if the half-life is short enough then it could also be used to intermittently boost testosterone without causing HPTA suppression.

 

[Stanfoo]

I've experimented with small doses used in addition to TRT. For me the results were very similar to what happens with scrotal testosterone cream added to TRT: there's a noticeable boost in libido for a few days, but it fades with continued use.

More recently I've been wondering if the pharmacokinetics of testosterone base is somewhat like that of nasal testosterone gel; if the half-life is short enough then it could also be used to intermittently boost testosterone without causing HPTA suppression.

How much mg testosterone base/day do you think would be safe to not cause suppression? I could be the guinea pig and test your theory out. Was planning on running low dose test base daily anyway once I get it.

 

[Cataceous]

How much mg testosterone base/day do you think would be safe to not cause suppression? I could be the guinea pig and test your theory out. Was planning on running low dose test base daily anyway once I get it.

You want to keep it low enough that peak serum testosterone remains physiological. I'm guessing each dose should be in the range of half a milligram to a few milligrams. With Natesto the doses are nominally 11 mg each, but so far I haven't seen estimates of absorption efficiency. They use three doses a day. In the Natesto trials they are bumping up serum testosterone from 200-300 ng/dL to 750-800.

The authors of the Natesto study say that endogenous production is suppressed for a period after each dose, but the relatively long periods between doses allow for continued normal HPTA operation:


The tricky part with experimenting is getting useful data without having to spend a lot on blood tests and be poked a lot as well. The bare minimum might be to measure serum testosterone one or two hours post-injection, hoping to be near the peak, and then a few hours later to make sure it's coming down fast.

 

[Stanfoo]

I was planning on doing 10mg/day, once daily. From the few anecdotes I've seen here they ran that protocol and felt good.

The authors of the Natesto study say that endogenous production is suppressed for a period after each dose, but the relatively long periods between doses allow for continued normal HPTA operation:

Given they did 3x a day and still remained functioning, if I only do 1x a day I would assume that's more than enough time in between doses for continued hpta function. That leaves the dose. You think 10mg would put someone out of range?

The tricky part with experimenting is getting useful data without having to spend a lot on blood tests and be poked a lot as well. The bare minimum might be to measure serum testosterone one or two hours post-injection, hoping to be near the peak, and then a few hours later to make sure it's coming down fast.

To expand on how to go about the testing process to check if hpta is affected. My natural levels are in the low 200's. I'm not on anything currently, so if hpta were to become fully suppressed once starting this protocol I'd assume it'd only happen after a few weeks or so.

So measure testosterone 2 hours post injection, then measure testosterone the next day right before injection (to see where your natural levels are at). Then redo this 1 month later, and compare the results of the test taken right before injection. If hpta were to still remain functioning, the results should be similar. Does this testing process check out? What about LH/FSH testing, would that be even more telling than simply testing testosterone?

 

[madman]

Speaking about testosterone no ester in oil, not testosterone suspension which is water based.

I've only seen a few users here post about it, but they all mentioned they felt better on it compared to estered testosterone. Apparently you can get by injecting it once daily, due to the oil prolonging the absorption rate.

Has anyone tried testosterone base? Can you share your experiences?

Regarding aqueous testosterone suspension, although there would be rapid absorption of the aqueous vehicle, the crystals of T depending on the particle size (human/veterinary grade) may very well behave like small implants which would be more slowly absorbed from the tissues although it is much faster acting than an esterified T such as (propionate).

With T base (oil/no ester) it would most likely be absorbed/degraded more quickly.

 

[madman]

I was planning on doing 10mg/day, once daily. From the few anecdotes I've seen here they ran that protocol and felt good.



Given they did 3x a day and still remained functioning, if I only do 1x a day I would assume that's more than enough time in between doses for continued hpta function. That leaves the dose. You think 10mg would put someone out of range?



To expand on how to go about the testing process to check if hpta is affected. My natural levels are in the low 200's. I'm not on anything currently, so if hpta were to become fully suppressed once starting this protocol I'd assume it'd only happen after a few weeks or so.

So measure testosterone 2 hours post injection, then measure testosterone the next day right before injection (to see where your natural levels are at). Then redo this 1 month later, and compare the results of the test taken right before injection. If hpta were to still remain functioning, the results should be similar. Does this testing process check out? What about LH/FSH testing, would that be even more telling than simply testing testosterone?

Injecting once daily would be pointless as far as being effective for relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.

Natesto needs to be dosed 3X daily to achieve the full beneficial effects.

It was not meant to be taken once daily as we as we are trying to spike T levels numerous times throughout the day for short periods which would be followed by a fairly long trough time which would maintain hpta function.

 

[Stanfoo]

Injecting once daily would be pointless as far as being effective for relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.

These guys would argue otherwise.

Testosterone No Ester

Just out of curiosity, if compounding pharmacies started making pure testosterone in say grapeseed oil carrier (no ester), how many would be interested in trying it for daily injections? I have a really good friend who "self prescribes" trt with testosterone no ester in oil and says its way...

www.excelmale.com

Testosterone suspension for TRT

Has anyone ever tried this? I used to be a steroid user and am currently on trt which is still being dialed in. I have to say the best I have felt with estrogen managed without an ai, less water retention, better sex drive etc was 10mg testosterone suspension sub q daily every morning. My...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Cataceous]

Ten milligrams is a large dose. This is more than almost all men would produce naturally in a day. Taken in a single injection it would be very likely to send serum testosterone above what's physiological. The best rule for hormones is low and slow. So why not start with smaller and work up if needed?

A single daily dose may or may not be enough to resolve low-T symptoms. However, I don't think there's any harm in trying that first, as I can understand that you'd want to minimize the daily injections, and maybe can't even fathom doing it three times a day. You'd have my sympathy except that I'm enduring six a day in order to get good results with my protocol.

It occurs to me that if the half-life of test base is on the order of hours, longer than that of nasal gel, then a single morning injection would give you a better imitation of natural variation. Hopefully there would still be plenty of low-T time to keep the HPTA going, as long as serum testosterone isn't excessive in the post-injection interval.

Your proposed testing protocol looks good; it should be quite informative. Adding in LH might not tell you a lot more, though would act as a backup measurement for confirmation. In natural men LH varies a lot depending on how close your measurement is to the last pulse.

 

[Vince]

Would it make any since to use testosterone no ester post workout along with enclomiphene?

 

[madman]

These guys would argue otherwise.

Testosterone No Ester

Just out of curiosity, if compounding pharmacies started making pure testosterone in say grapeseed oil carrier (no ester), how many would be interested in trying it for daily injections? I have a really good friend who "self prescribes" trt with testosterone no ester in oil and says its way...

www.excelmale.com

Testosterone suspension for TRT

Has anyone ever tried this? I used to be a steroid user and am currently on trt which is still being dialed in. I have to say the best I have felt with estrogen managed without an ai, less water retention, better sex drive etc was 10mg testosterone suspension sub q daily every morning. My...

www.excelmale.com

Go nuts than.

Look up half-life of unesterified testosterone and get back to me on that one.

Regarding unesterified solvent/oil-based T highly doubtful the carrier oil would prolong the absorption rate to any significant degree let alone the volume of oil you will be injecting is minuscule.

100mg/ml strength T which would be 10 units/.10ml (10mg T) daily.

Your T levels will spike quickly and fall off fast.

Pre-workout sure!

Would be a piss poor protocol to treat low-t symptoms let alone long-term.




* Schematic overview of the pharmacology of testosterone esters. Testosterone is esterified through the 17 β hydroxyl group with fatty acid esters of different aliphatic or other chain lengths which is a biologically inactive pro-drug. The esterified testosterone in an oil vehicle is injected deeply into a muscle forming a local drug depot from which the testosterone ester is released at a slow rate determined by its Physico-chemical partitioning according to the testosterone ester’s hydrophobicity. Once the testosterone ester exits the depot and enters the extracellular fluids, it is rapidly hydrolyzed by ubiquitous non-specific esterases thereby releasing the testosterone into the general circulation.


Injectable

The most widely used testosterone formulation for many decades has been the intramuscular injection of testosterone esters, formed by 17b-esterification of testosterone with fatty acids of various aliphatic and/or aromatic chain lengths, injected in a vegetable oil vehicle. This depot product relies on retarded release of the testosterone ester from the oil vehicle injection depot because esters undergo rapid hydrolysis by ubiquitous esterases to liberate free testosterone into the circulation. The pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of androgen esters are therefore primarily determined by ester side-chain length, the volume of oil vehicle, and site of injection via hydrophobic physicochemical partitioning of the androgen ester between the hydrophobic oil vehicle and the aqueous extracellular fluid.

 

[Stanfoo]

Look up half-life of unesterified testosterone and get back to me on that one.

Would be a piss poor protocol to treat low-t symptoms let alone long-term.

Yet things don't always play out how science and theory suggests. Stating absolutes like 'it's pointless' is ignorant when it clearly worked for some. Had those fellas dismissed this piss poor protocol like you suggest, they wouldn't have found a hidden gem.

 

[DS3]

Yet things don't always play out how science and theory suggests. Stating absolutes like 'it's pointless' is ignorant when it clearly worked for some. Had those fellas dismissed this piss poor protocol like you suggest, they wouldn't have found a hidden gem.

Just try it, get multiple blood tests, keep a journal regarding your response to the protocol, and report back to us. It’s unlikely that such a protocol would yield an optimal response, but there’s always the possibility that you’re an outlier.

 

[madman]

Yet things don't always play out how science and theory suggests. Stating absolutes like 'it's pointless' is ignorant when it clearly worked for some. Had those fellas dismissed this piss poor protocol like you suggest, they wouldn't have found a hidden gem.

You are spiking your T temporarily once daily what is it you are not understanding here?

 

[Stanfoo]

You are spiking your T temporarily once daily what is it you are not understanding here?

Are you a doctor? You have the mindset of one, where literature triumphs everything. Refusal to acknowledge the exceptions to the rule due to pride.

Your comment implies spiking T temporarily once daily is bad, ineffective, useless, etc. Maybe for some, not for others. Clearly you've dismissed the possibility that doing so would actually be beneficial for some, as the large highs and lows would mimic the body's natural circadian rhythm. I guess those two guys who felt great on the protocol were all placebo.

So right back at you: what are you not understanding here? There are never any absolutes in TRT, everyone responds differently.

 

[madman]

Are you a doctor? You have the mindset of one, where literature triumphs everything. Refusal to acknowledge the exceptions to the rule due to pride.

Your comment implies spiking T temporarily once daily is bad, ineffective, useless, etc. Maybe for some, not for others. Clearly you've dismissed the possibility that doing so would actually be beneficial for some, as the large highs and lows would mimic the body's natural circadian rhythm. I guess those two guys who felt great on the protocol were all placebo.

So right back at you: what are you not understanding here? There are never any absolutes in TRT, everyone responds differently.

For the treatment of low-t symptoms injecting an unesterified oil-based T would be far from optimal.

You are in no way mimicking the natural 24hr circadian rhythm of a healthy young male where levels peak in the early am and decline in the late afternoon/early evening.

Eugonadal!

Nothing natural about spiking your T levels once daily only to be back to hypogonadal.

 

[Stanfoo]

For the treatment of low-t symptoms injecting an unesterified oil-based T would be far from optimal.

I'd agree with this as a general statement.

The difference between us is, I acknowledge that this may also be the most optimal protocol for certain others. I don't use blanket statements because I acknowledge everyone's biochemistry is different and thus even the most farfetched protocols may yield better results than the standard ones.

I get your stance. As for me, nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

[Vince]

Would it make any since to use testosterone no ester post workout along with enclomiphene?

Sorry, I meant to post pre-workout

 

[Cataceous]

...
Nothing natural about spiking your T levels once daily only to be back to hypogonadal.

But is there something special about doing it three times with the nasal gel? Maybe in the Natesto product development phase they experimented with different frequencies? Are there any references for the half-life of testosterone in oil? What if it is hours instead of minutes? If so then a single morning injection would somewhat approximate a natural rhythm. Natural men do experience "hypogonadal" testosterone levels at their troughs.