3 Reasons for "Deca D*ck"

[Vince]

3 Reasons for "Deca D*ck" the whole video is only 19:32 min long

A physician’s analysis of Deca Durabolin (nandrolone decanoate) and its erectile dysfunction side effect, well known as “deca dick.” I’ve identified 3 mechanisms that cause "deca dick," and also cover deca’s other side effects and properties, as well as its unique anecdotal claims about muscle and joint protection. If you are considering using deca, please watch this video first and understand the side effects! For information on my practice and consultations, visit https://www.metabolicdoc.com Anabolic recovery consults: http://www.anabolicdoc.com TABLE OF CONTENTS: 01:44 - DECA DURABOLIN HISTORY 03:44 - MEDICAL USES 05:35 - PHARMACOLOGY & STRUCTURE 06:49 - SIDE EFFECTS 06:56 - 3 “DECA DICK” MECHANISMS 07:33 - depletes T, doesn’t have its own androgenic effects 08:35 - 5-alpha reduced to a compound that is not androgenic 09:59 - increases progestin which acts similarly to estrogen 12:28 Estrogenic Side Effects - due to progestin activity, gynecomastia (13:09) 13:48 Musculoskeletal Side Effects - anecdotal, possible mechansims include increased fluid in joints, collagen synthesis 16:30 - LIVER & KIDNEY SIDE EFFECTS 17:14 - CARDIOVASCULAR SIDE EFFECTS - negatively affects cholesterol, blood pressure, artery lining Stay Strong and Healthy, Dr. O ____________ As the Anabolic Doc, since 2003, I’ve provided men who are using or have used anabolic steroids a confidential, ethical and professional medical venue to discuss their use. I do NOT in any way support the use of any performance enhancing drugs - PEDs, anabolic steroid or other medicine for muscle building or body transformation. The “off-label” use of PEDs, as such agents is considered elicit and may lead to adverse health outcomes. Please consult an expert health professional regarding any medical agent and do NOT use any medicine without the explicit advice and supervision of an appropriate medical expert. This video is for education and information only. This is not medical advice. Only take medications as prescribed by your doctor. Do not take illegal substances. Taking steroids can lead to serious health consequences.

 

[Warrior]

Thanks, Vince

 

[bochinit]

That's the reason one I never touched that.

 

[benaoao]

That’s a lot of words for “lack of estradiol”

 

[bochinit]

That’s a lot of words for “lack of estradiol”

If was just lack of estradiol why deca dick still occours in Test + Nandrolone use?

Aperantly theres a lot of factors behind this.

 

[benaoao]

I don’t know about the frequency of Deca dick in general. I’ve mostly seen AI abusers report such a thing, so my take is whoever has too high or too low of an androgen/estrogen ratio is going to have ED symptoms. Prolactin is a pretty good surrogate for this ratio.

Nandrolone only tends to crash prolactin and estradiol brings it back to mid range. High prolactin probably a matter of wrong (read: excessive) dosages. I don’t think anyone is prone to any drug’s side effect, I think we all have tolerance or sensitivity to a drug and I think many are doing it wrong (read: injecting too much because faceless nameless broscientists online say crap like “200 is a waste”*) for the most part

*: they even say that for tren now! The internet is extremely toxic.

 

[DS3]

I don’t know about the frequency of Deca dick in general. I’ve mostly seen AI abusers report such a thing, so my take is whoever has too high or too low of an androgen/estrogen ratio is going to have ED symptoms. Prolactin is a pretty good surrogate for this ratio.

Nandrolone only tends to crash prolactin and estradiol brings it back to mid range. High prolactin probably a matter of wrong (read: excessive) dosages. I don’t think anyone is prone to any drug’s side effect, I think we all have tolerance or sensitivity to a drug and I think many are doing it wrong (read: injecting too much because faceless nameless broscientists online say crap like “200 is a waste”*) for the most part

*: they even say that for tren now! The internet is extremely toxic.

That’s a lot of ‘I think’ to be making such confident statements.

The vasoconstriction that occurs with DHN, and conversely the vasodilation with DHT, is known. Nitric-oxide mediated erectile function is achieved through DHT; DHN does not possess these same qualities.

Aside from DHT’s role in NO mediated EF, DHT is the metabolite that makes us FEEL manly (cognitive emotional response). DHN does not possess these same qualities.

So aside from the potential lowering of estrogen, which is a weak argument because only a select few on this forum or on any TRT program use Deca as a base (thus exogenous T will maintain good E2 levels- evident from blood work on those who have been on Test/Deca for TRT), the other two variables at play are the vasoconstriction that can occur with DHN, resulted in decreased erection quality and ability, as well as DHNs decreased ‘manliness’ factor (potentiating a reduced libido/drive for sex).

Personally, while on 200 test and 100 Deca for TRT at the Baylor College of Medicine, I experienced pretty profound erectile dysfunction from Deca after 6 weeks of use. E2 was at 40 pg/dL (close to where it normally is), and all others levels were approximately the same, with a very small decrease in prolactin (negligible).

 

[Gman86]

The whole “deca dick” thing is so fascinating. For anyone that has experienced “deca dick”, I wish those same people could flip the test and deca ratios, to see if it helps or makes things worse. I theorize that it would make things better.

While on 200mg of deca, and 43mg of test, and 525iu’s of HCG, my libido was like a 6-7/10, but this was while masturbating daily. It would go up a bit if I abstained for a day, so I would assume it would go up even more if I abstained for more than a day. Erections were about as good as they’ve ever been. Morning wood every single day. Would get fully erect from just thinking about sex. Didn’t need to physically touch it at all. And would maintain erections for as long as I wanted while having sex. Would literally stay erect until I had an orgasm. This was all while having an E2 of 24. I would imagine that these things will improve by getting E2 up a little higher.

I just wish we had some conclusive evidence of what actually causes “deca dick”

 

[benaoao]

Y’all keep in mind nandrolone binds to AR ER and PR. So tweaking around E2 is key.

I think DHN vs DHT is massively overblown with regards to erections. Why is that? You can get “Tren dick” when running it by itself and Tren is MEGA androgenic, more than DHT. Very manly. However there is no “trestolone dick” since trest converts into methylE2 which makes it suitable for HRT (and makes you horny as hell). Erections aren’t about androgens. You’ve never watched tranny sex huh? They aren’t exactly manly.

19nors, being progestins, are akin to Progesterone which is anti E2. Nandrolone has 22% of Prog affinity to PR but nandrolone is used in much higher quantities obviously.

Progesterone may also have an antagonistic activity against estradiol, mediated through a decrease in the replenishment of the estrogen receptor, and also through increased 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase which leads to accelerated metabolism of estradiol to estrone in the target organ.

Does estrone go up when people run Deca? Yes. This is confirmed in studies, rats humans anecdotes E1 goes up. Clearly there’s an antiE2 effect from PR activation.

Crash E2 and try to get it up...Not gonna happen. Overactivate Progesterone receptor... same negative effect on libido. There’s a lot of science on progestins. Quick overview here:

Hormonal predictors of sexual motivation in natural menstrual cycles

So that’s that. Bottom line - gotta figure out a new E2 sweet spot. Estradiol makes y’all horny.

 

[benaoao]

Actually, a better model than MtF transgenders for E2 being necessary for all things libido and erection in men, would be androgen deprivation therapy patients. Neal Rouzier has mentioned it in TOT videos. Estradiol restores their sexual function in the absence of test. And nandrolone/DHN are better than naught!

Most compelling is the fact that in men with serum testosterone <300 ng dl-1, sexual drive was seen to be markedly higher when estradiol levels were >5 ng dl-1. In addition, when patients with low testosterone were treated with letrozole, a potent aromatase inhibitor, libido was decreased, suggesting that complete elimination of estradiol and decreasing the T/E ratio too severely, adversely affects sexual desire in men.

please note that 5ng/dL = 50 pg/mL... there is a lot to quote. My opinion remains: PR vs ER issues. Progestin use & lack of E2 (E1 is piss weak)

 

[DS3]

Y’all keep in mind nandrolone binds to AR ER and PR. So tweaking around E2 is key.

I think DHN vs DHT is massively overblown with regards to erections. Why is that? You can get “Tren dick” when running it by itself and Tren is MEGA androgenic, more than DHT. Very manly. However there is no “trestolone dick” since trest converts into methylE2 which makes it suitable for HRT (and makes you horny as hell). Erections aren’t about androgens. You’ve never watched tranny sex huh? They aren’t exactly manly.

19nors, being progestins, are akin to Progesterone which is anti E2. Nandrolone has 22% of Prog affinity to PR but nandrolone is used in much higher quantities obviously.

Progesterone may also have an antagonistic activity against estradiol, mediated through a decrease in the replenishment of the estrogen receptor, and also through increased 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase which leads to accelerated metabolism of estradiol to estrone in the target organ.

Does estrone go up when people run Deca? Yes. This is confirmed in studies, rats humans anecdotes E1 goes up. Clearly there’s an antiE2 effect from PR activation.

Crash E2 and try to get it up...Not gonna happen. Overactivate Progesterone receptor... same negative effect on libido. There’s a lot of science on progestins. Quick overview here:

Hormonal predictors of sexual motivation in natural menstrual cycles

So that’s that. Bottom line - gotta figure out a new E2 sweet spot. Estradiol makes y’all horny.

@benaoao Unfortunately these studies refer to (a) sexual behavior of women as it relates to their menstrual cycle and (b) progesterone's characteristic of estrogen antagonism in women; neither of these studies can be extrapolated to men, especially men on TRT.

(1) Here is a solid study that disputes your opinion that Estrogen is the singular factor that creates male libido, not testosterone.

The role of estradiol in male reproductive function - PMC

Traditionally, testosterone and estrogen have been considered to be male and female sex hormones, respectively. However, estradiol, the predominant form of estrogen, also plays a critical role in male sexual function. Estradiol in men is essential ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"However, estradiol, the predominant form of estrogen, also plays a critical role in male sexual function. Estradiol in men is essential for modulating libido, erectile function, and spermatogenesis...Low testosterone and elevated estrogen increase the incidence of erectile dysfunction independently of one another."

Role of estradiol in hypogonadal men treated with testosterone supplementation therapy

"These studies provide evidence that both estrogen and testosterone are necessary for normal libido in testosterone-deficient men."

Read through this study. The evidence is pretty clear that BOTH testosterone and estradiol are needed for libido and erectile function.

(2) My E2 stayed within a normal range compared to when I am just on T. My E2 on T alone is between 40-60 pg/dL, and was measured at 40 pg/dL while adding nandrolone. For the erectile dysfunction that I experienced, diminished E2 levels cannot be the answer.

 

[DS3]

Actually, a better model than MtF transgenders for E2 being necessary for all things libido and erection in men, would be androgen deprivation therapy patients. Neal Rouzier has mentioned it in TOT videos. Estradiol restores their sexual function in the absence of test. And nandrolone/DHN are better than naught!

Most compelling is the fact that in men with serum testosterone <300 ng dl-1, sexual drive was seen to be markedly higher when estradiol levels were >5 ng dl-1. In addition, when patients with low testosterone were treated with letrozole, a potent aromatase inhibitor, libido was decreased, suggesting that complete elimination of estradiol and decreasing the T/E ratio too severely, adversely affects sexual desire in men.

please note that 5ng/dL = 50 pg/mL... there is a lot to quote. My opinion remains: PR vs ER issues. Progestin use & lack of E2 (E1 is piss weak)

I think you skipped over the section regarding the Role of estradiol in hypogonadal men treated with testosterone supplementation therapy.

No worries. I posted it for you.

 

[Gman86]

Y’all keep in mind nandrolone binds to AR ER and PR. So tweaking around E2 is key.

I think DHN vs DHT is massively overblown with regards to erections. Why is that? You can get “Tren dick” when running it by itself and Tren is MEGA androgenic, more than DHT. Very manly. However there is no “trestolone dick” since trest converts into methylE2 which makes it suitable for HRT (and makes you horny as hell). Erections aren’t about androgens. You’ve never watched tranny sex huh? They aren’t exactly manly.

19nors, being progestins, are akin to Progesterone which is anti E2. Nandrolone has 22% of Prog affinity to PR but nandrolone is used in much higher quantities obviously.

Progesterone may also have an antagonistic activity against estradiol, mediated through a decrease in the replenishment of the estrogen receptor, and also through increased 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase which leads to accelerated metabolism of estradiol to estrone in the target organ.

Does estrone go up when people run Deca? Yes. This is confirmed in studies, rats humans anecdotes E1 goes up. Clearly there’s an antiE2 effect from PR activation.

Crash E2 and try to get it up...Not gonna happen. Overactivate Progesterone receptor... same negative effect on libido. There’s a lot of science on progestins. Quick overview here:

Hormonal predictors of sexual motivation in natural menstrual cycles

So that’s that. Bottom line - gotta figure out a new E2 sweet spot. Estradiol makes y’all horny.

Since HCG can tend to increase progesterone, do you think HCG wouldn’t be a smart thing to use while using deca?

 

[DS3]

Sing HCG can tend to increase progesterone, do you think HCG wouldn’t be a smart thing to use while using deca?

No reason to ask a question to someone who doesn't know the answer and anything you get back will be mere speculation, which won't help you in the long-run. HCG is working for you on your protocol; no reason to question that.

 

[DS3]

The whole “deca dick” thing is so fascinating. For anyone that has experienced “deca dick”, I wish those same people could flip the test and deca ratios, to see if it helps or makes things worse. I theorize that it would make things better.

While on 200mg of deca, and 43mg of test, and 525iu’s of HCG, my libido was like a 6-7/10, but this was while masturbating daily. It would go up a bit if I abstained for a day, so I would assume it would go up even more if I abstained for more than a day. Erections were about as good as they’ve ever been. Morning wood every single day. Would get fully erect from just thinking about sex. Didn’t need to physically touch it at all. And would maintain erections for as long as I wanted while having sex. Would literally stay erect until I had an orgasm. This was all while having an E2 of 24. I would imagine that these things will improve by getting E2 up a little higher.

I just wish we had some conclusive evidence of what actually causes “deca dick”

@Gman86 Did you try Deca at a lower dosage while on your normal TRT before you tried you lower T higher Deca protocol? I can’t remember if you had or if this is your first use of Deca.

 

[Gman86]

@Gman86 Did you try Deca at a lower dosage while on your normal TRT before you tried you lower T higher Deca protocol? I can’t remember if you had or if this is your first use of Deca.

No never. Using deca as my base is the first time I’ve ever used it. Was pretty worried what it was gonna do to me sexually, not gonna lie, but so far so good, thank god lol.

 

[DS3]

No never. Using deca as my base is the first time I’ve ever used it. Was pretty worried what it was gonna do to me sexually, not gonna lie, but so far so good, thank god lol.

Got it! Thanks. After you have been on your current protocol for a decent amount of time, would you consider inverting the T:N ratio and seeing you do over the course of 8 weeks or so? I'd be extremely interested to see.

 

[Gman86]

Got it! Thanks. After you have been on your current protocol. Cvs 2 for a decent amount of time, would you consider inverting the T:N ratio and seeing you do over the course of 8 weeks or so? I'd be extremely interested to see.

Man I would also be extremely interested in the results of that experiment. But I probably won’t be doing that experiment unfortunately. Mostly because I’m with Defy, and I really like to stick to whatever protocol I’m prescribed. To try that experiment, I’d have to have a consult to switch it, and if I want to switch back, I’d have to have another consult. So I’d have to pay the consult fee, and pay for labs, each time. But honestly I don’t see myself going back to using test as my base anytime soon, if ever. I’m loving the fact that nandrolone seems to be giving me all the benefits that using test as a base gives, and allows me to have the freedom to control my E2, by adjusting my test and HCG doses, just like I would adjust an ai.

 

[DS3]

Actually, a better model than MtF transgenders for E2 being necessary for all things libido and erection in men, would be androgen deprivation therapy patients. Neal Rouzier has mentioned it in TOT videos. Estradiol restores their sexual function in the absence of test. And nandrolone/DHN are better than naught!

Most compelling is the fact that in men with serum testosterone <300 ng dl-1, sexual drive was seen to be markedly higher when estradiol levels were >5 ng dl-1. In addition, when patients with low testosterone were treated with letrozole, a potent aromatase inhibitor, libido was decreased, suggesting that complete elimination of estradiol and decreasing the T/E ratio too severely, adversely affects sexual desire in men.

please note that 5ng/dL = 50 pg/mL... there is a lot to quote. My opinion remains: PR vs ER issues. Progestin use & lack of E2 (E1 is piss weak)

@benaoao Check out this video. You would really like/appreciate the dialogue between Nelson and the lead researcher on the study that we both posted.

Estradiol in Men: Interview with Urology Professor Dr Ranjith Ramasamy

Nelson Vergel, founder of ExcelMale.com and DiscountedLabs.com and author of Testosterone: A Man's Guide, interviews Dr Ranjith Ramasamy. Dr Ramasamy is the Director of Male Reproductive Medicine and Surgery as well as an Assistant professor in Department of Urology at the University of Miami...

www.excelmale.com

 

[DS3]

Good point. I’ve actually decided to pull away from combining nandrolone and HCG because of HCG keeping T&DHT at normal levels and I want to experiment with Deca only as an androgen, no confounders. Estradiol supplements sound reasonable (Moreplatesmoredates did just that) but I came to think of the following upon watching Dr. O’Connor’s video on his patient using 300mg/wk Deca for 20 years. Total E2 was below range yet this man reported high libido.

Now Taiean Clarke advises very high doses of Deca to push E2 in a Testosterone-based “good” range, not factoring in that androgen/estrogen ratio is totally out of whack no matter what E2 is. High libido reported by his guys.

Then throw test in, any amount: high risk of Deca dick.

Perhaps Deca dick is solely high E2, in spite of what bloodworks say? The mental aspect isn’t destroyed on nandrolone just like it can be in Letrozole users. It’s just Penis not functioning. Sounds like high (cellular,free) E2.

Since SHBG goes very low on nandrolone, perhaps it’s free E2 that goes bonkers and total E2 is better off LOW.

That would also explain how someone else here uses pretty low doses of HCG and feels fine. My idea of starting with a conventional dose of 250eod / 500e3.5d would therefore be flat out wrong. And @DS3 is right I shouldn’t factor in studies that use testosterone since we are looking at nandrolone as a base.

Bottom line - I’m ditching HCG for now and will stick to Deca only at 250 mg/wk (1cc). If sh*t hits the fan, like I said my GF lives in another city and we’re furloughed so, no biggies. A few days in and my skin is clearing up already.

Do it and keep us updated. I’d be very curious to see how you respond.