Clomid & Testosterone: Why they don't work together - By Mike Gaiso

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Vettester Chris said:
Lots of interesting talking points!! Here's my angle on it ... The whole purpose of administering HCG or Clomid is for the benefit of LH. Men diagnosed with Secondary Hypogonadism can achieve benefit of testicular well being, and in other areas of the body where LH receptor sites are present. However, most 'secondary' males are lacking adequate GNRH> LH production (for one reason or another), thus TRT is needed (I know this 101 for most, but just recapping).

Clomid is a SERM to stimulate natural LH production in the pituitary, whereas HCG is the LH analog in a bottle, no guesswork, you dial in your dose and it's guaranteed LH each and every time. My point being that we are exploring how to get LH circulating throughout our bodies again, because for whatever reason the brain 'cannot' produce and/or sustain production of it, yet some are taking a medication (Clomid) that will stimulate the pituitary to produce LH?!?! (But wait, we are on TRT because our axis has failed).

It just seems a bit redundant when knowing HCG could easily provide an exact amount of LH every time you take it. Clomid's effectiveness will be different with each person, and it will solely depend on a person's pituitary situation. Additionally, to Gene's point, the HPTA will be in a state of conflict with elevated testosterone serum levels from exogenous medication. This doesn't mean it (Clomid) can't have any upsides, everyone is different, but again it's all guesswork, and you're relying on an area in the brain that was deemed unreliable. This is what warranted TRT to begin with.
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I'm not trying to attack you just start a discussion.

I haven't seen anything supporting the idea of GNRH production in secondary hypogonadal men nor lack of response from GNRH to release LH. With clomid usually the numbers respond but the patient doesn't feel a difference, they look good on paper but how they feel doesn't improve.

Most men do seem to respond to clomid, IME from reading labs online and such, although there are a few that I've seen who do not respond.

hCG seems to have poorer response long term than clomid does, eventually the testosterone production decreases with the same dose of hCG. Certainly interesting, just doesn't agree with everything I've seen or read.

You can read it for yourself on his forum. We are not allowed to post links to other forums. Dr. Crisler posted it himself recently.
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I went to his forum, and you are absolutely correct, a member there asked what his opinion was of TRT + clomid as an alternative to hCG for testicular size.

Dr John Crisler responded "I think it's a good idea".

Sorry to make fun of you, you were correct, he does seem to support it now.
 
Defy Medical TRT clinic doctor
ratbag said:
You can read it for yourself on his forum. We are not allowed to post links to other forums. Dr. Crisler posted it himself recently.
Click to expand...

Pigs must be flying now...

I've personally used Clomid WITH testosterone replacement in a select few patients, but not as a substitute for HCG as I've seen both LH/FSH still fully suppressed in patients taking both Clomid/TRT concurrently (i.e. Clomid doesn't appear to function as intended while on TRT...or isn't "strong enough" to overcome the HPTA suppression from adequately dosed TRT) - I've used it exclusively as a means to try to boost SHBG levels in a few challenging cases.
 
Dr Justin Saya said:
Pigs must be flying now...

I've personally used Clomid WITH testosterone replacement in a select few patients, but not as a substitute for HCG as I've seen both LH/FSH still fully suppressed in patients taking both Clomid/TRT concurrently (i.e. Clomid doesn't appear to function as intended while on TRT...or isn't "strong enough" to overcome the HPTA suppression from adequately dosed TRT) - I've used it exclusively as a means to try to boost SHBG levels in a few challenging cases.
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Has that helped the low SHBG guys at all, Dr. Saya? I ask because I know that for guys with normal SHBG, Clomid will generally raise it, but what about guys with 'abnormal' (Low) SHBG? Nothing seems to work as expected for us.
 
ERO said:
Has that helped the low SHBG guys at all, Dr. Saya? I ask because I know that for guys with normal SHBG, Clomid will generally raise it, but what about guys with 'abnormal' (Low) SHBG? Nothing seems to work as expected for us.
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I know we've discussed that amongst other options for your challenging case, ERO, I believe on our last consult.

I've seen mixed results, both subjectively and objectively, but have only used Clomid in that capacity in a small handful of patients. With that said, I haven't seen any truly negative responses. The small number of low SHBG guys I've tried this with were not doing great to begin with, so it was worth a try. Hence, why I put it on the table as an option for you.
 
johndoesmith said:
I'm not trying to attack you just start a discussion.

I haven't seen anything supporting the idea of GNRH production in secondary hypogonadal men nor lack of response from GNRH to release LH. With clomid usually the numbers respond but the patient doesn't feel a difference, they look good on paper but how they feel doesn't improve.

Most men do seem to respond to clomid, IME from reading labs online and such, although there are a few that I've seen who do not respond.

hCG seems to have poorer response long term than clomid does, eventually the testosterone production decreases with the same dose of hCG. Certainly interesting, just doesn't agree with everything I've seen or read.
Click to expand...

JDS, great talking points, and nothing at all is remotely offensive or taken negatively. I can only speak from personal experience with HCG. It's been at least seven (7) years for me and it works just as effective as it did from Day 1. My serum levels (in conjunction with Test Cyp) have sustained a consistent level throughout this time, +/- a nominal variance related from exact draw time times, dosage amounts, and there's always that variable with the mixture ratio and shelf life of HCG.

I agree with the statement on GNRH to LH. As I stated, 'most' males are lacking adequate production when diagnosed with secondary. I don't think this doesn't mean they have zero ability to secrete this hormone, it just means for one reason or the other the brain cannot sustain continuous production, and/or it's ability to produce adequate levels is questionable. At the same time, if anyone Secondary is able to get optimal results with a Clomid protocol to compliment their TRT regiment, then hats off to them! I'd really like to see some more members post before & after labs of TRT pre/post Clomid, as it would be informative to these discussions.
 
Fantastic responses, thank you all. I am just curious about the HCG desensitization on the leydig cells. I can find good research that fetal leydig cells do not become desensitized but not so much for adults. Anyone have thoughts or research on this? I like, but seem to disagree with what Chris Vettester said "Clomid is a SERM to stimulate natural LH production in the pituitary, whereas HCG is the LH analog in a bottle, no guesswork, you dial in your dose and it's guaranteed LH each and every time." In my mind, Clomid is "stimulating" a natural LH response from the pituitary. Whereas providing exogenous LH/FSH (HCG) to me would be kind of like TRT effects, only the leydig cells may decrease sensitivity (the AR's do not to such a great extent). In my mind, i like the idea that clomid stimulates LH and FSH production for the testes and for endogenous testosterone. It is used for off label fertility in males as well, so that suggest it works.

 
I am not sure if you are still questioning whether Clomid will work with TRT, but it seems that you are. If so, reread my original post (I wrote the sticky). However, if you are still confused, I will offer this.

Think of it this way, the Hypothal will not release GNRH if it seems adequate amounts of EITHER estrogen or androgens. Yes, taking clomid during TRT will blind the Hypothal to estrogen. However, the hypothal will still see the androgens (testosterone and DHT). Think of adequate or greater levels of E as creating a STOP signal. Also, think of adequate or greater levels of androgens as creating a STOP signal

If a man on no therapy has Low T and adequate or high E, there is no Stop signal from androgens, but there is a stop signal from E. Thus, the hypothal does NOT secrete GNRH.

If you put that same on clomid, there still is no Stop signal from androgens, and the clomid blocks the stop signal that would come from E. Thus, the hypothal secretes GNRH.

If you put that same man on clomid and TRT, there is a Stop signal from the androgens. Although clomid still shields the E. It doesn't matter. The stop command has been launched.

I hope that helps


Discovery41 said:
I am new to all of this. I have been on HRT for about a year now. I have a bachelors and masters in Biology. So, i am not a Dr, but comfortable with research.I was concerned about my testicular pain and atrophy, but after a sperm test, my Dr. was not (i just became engaged). So i started doing my own research so i could talk to him next month. I see a lot about HPTA "suppression" and it seems to be analogous to "deceased" , for example, Gene Devine "Take all the Clomid you want, the HTPA will not respond because it is suppressed by the exogenous testosterone. Sure Clomid will still blind the hypothalamus to your estrogen. However, in this case It won't matter; HTPA is shutdown." But i've seen research on here by Nelson, and et al on clomid stimulating FSH and LH. So the HPTA is not dead or shutdown, just suppressed. So the E2 blocking Clomid can wake it up and stimulate FSH and LH to get the results of testicular response, as ive read. There are no long term studies about prolonged clomid use that i can find. But long term use of HCG seems to desensitize leydig cells. And anything i find is using Clomid to resensitize leydig cells. So as i read of the success stories on here of Clomid, and compare it to what i can read, I just have to wonder.. Why HCG is deemed the God of testicular atrophy and spermatogenesis. I do not mean to be confrontational, just curious.
Click to expand...
 
As to why people seem to think highly of HCG for teste shrinkage and not so much clomid when HCG can cause desentisation
1 - HCG only desensitizes at very high levels, much higher than necessary to restore teste function
2- Those people who like HCG are on TRT. CLomid doesn't work on TRT for reasons I have described



Discovery41 said:
I am new to all of this. I have been on HRT for about a year now. I have a bachelors and masters in Biology. So, i am not a Dr, but comfortable with research.I was concerned about my testicular pain and atrophy, but after a sperm test, my Dr. was not (i just became engaged). So i started doing my own research so i could talk to him next month. I see a lot about HPTA "suppression" and it seems to be analogous to "deceased" , for example, Gene Devine "Take all the Clomid you want, the HTPA will not respond because it is suppressed by the exogenous testosterone. Sure Clomid will still blind the hypothalamus to your estrogen. However, in this case It won't matter; HTPA is shutdown." But i've seen research on here by Nelson, and et al on clomid stimulating FSH and LH. So the HPTA is not dead or shutdown, just suppressed. So the E2 blocking Clomid can wake it up and stimulate FSH and LH to get the results of testicular response, as ive read. There are no long term studies about prolonged clomid use that i can find. But long term use of HCG seems to desensitize leydig cells. And anything i find is using Clomid to resensitize leydig cells. So as i read of the success stories on here of Clomid, and compare it to what i can read, I just have to wonder.. Why HCG is deemed the God of testicular atrophy and spermatogenesis. I do not mean to be confrontational, just curious.
Click to expand...
 
At the sake of looking dumb, i still have to ask what this research has to do precisely with Clomid? The abstract, results, and your graph above are in reference to anastrozole and not clomid. As i understand it, and i'm still new to all of this so that is why i have to ask what may be a very dumb question, Anastrozole is an AI, and clomid is a SERM correct? And from what i have read here, and other places, but very little research unfortunately, to say "At the end of the day, it does not matter, as we know clomid does not work with TRT. It certainly highlights some interesting interesting complex mechanisms involved in HPTA regulation. " I have been unable to find anything that would conclude that "we know clomid does not work with TRT."

 
I guess it is time to come out of my shell a bit. I've been on all sorts of forums looking for a place to spend the most of my time based on the merit of discussion (professionalism, respect, and quality of knowledge). This site is fantastic, above and beyond! Thank you Nelson et al. !
I have been on TRT for exactly one year now. I am 41. My original labs were TT 420, FT 6.1. Based on my labs and symptoms, my urologist started me on TRT, 250mg/2wks. I did that and got about 50% of what i had hoped for in terms of libido, strength, energy, mood, you name it. I admit, i wanted to be 18 again. About 8 months ago i started doing 200mg every week (i wanted to accumulate the T based on the half life) b/c he wrote my last Rx wrong, so i was getting 600mg for the entire month. I then would say i found about 70% of what i had hoped, so have been doing that. And for the first time in my entire life i have now at least started to actually build muscle with my workouts. I have worked out HARD since i was 18 and have always been a hard gainer. I have been thanking God for seeing not only the fruit of my labor in the gym, but feeling more "normal" in terms of energy and libido. Then the testicular suppression began. I did not think it would bother me. But my fiance loves "the boys" despite the fact i never had a real looking set of "boys" in the first place. And seeing the sagging skin did bother me as well. I live in rural MT, hard to get in to see my Dr. 2 hrs away, but he did order a sperm count and motility, and i surprisingly passed. So he would not order HCG. To be fair, i figured my sperm would be low so i did not explain via email my aesthetic displeasure, it was purely based on my ability to fertilize with my fiance (but we are not going to try for children at this point, i just did not tell him that, hoping to get HCG based on a higher form of reason than aesthetics. I should have just been honest, i know). After researching, i saw how clomid may help, and that i could get it from Canada, so i did. I know i should not have w/o a Dr. so no need to chastise me for that, i get it. I did 50 mg for 2 days to jump start, and have been doing 25mg a day for 2 weeks. To downsize the possibility of the placebo effect, all i expected from the clomid was hopefully to gain my testicles back, and hopefully another little boost to my test for libido, mood, workout,etc. What has happened is a HUGE increase in my libido and my mood. Nothing in the gym yet (time proportional i know). I do feel 20 again. Before 2 weeks ago, i maybe woke up with wood once every 2 months. For the past 5-10 days, its every morning. I am wanting sex every single night too, rather than 2x a week, which was still a huge improvement for me while just on test. So, that is why i have been on this thread a lot. This thread is by far the most intelligent thing i have found to be a part of, along with the rest of the site. And that is why i have been offering a voice of dissent/question to those of you saying the HPTA is shutdown, and clomid does not work, and agreeing with the other success stories. My analysis of clomid, HPTA, etc at this point is this. And of course i speak only for myself and others that have had success with clomid while on TRT. The HPTA is suppressed, not shut down, while on TRT at 200 plus mg per week. Suppressed and shutdown are 2 different things, and we should acknowledge that verbage perhaps as we discuss this issue, bc there is a difference, i am sure we all would agree. I would also agree that HCG and leydig cell sensitization seems to occur with the higher dosage use. I have no problem with HCG, I just would offer at this point that it is not the only viable option perhaps. My clomid use has been short term, i know that. But that does not mean my initial results are invalid, esp when they concur with other clomid success stories with long term users. The Dr's on here seem to acknowledge this to a point, Dr. Saya i believe. I see my Dr. Tuesday 3/07/17. I plan to confess my holiday inn express medical degree decision to try clomid, ask for forgiveness and direction. I know some labs would be helpful etc. I just wanted to say that at this point, I am better after adding the clomid, so far......And there does seem to be a little less skin sagging already as well. That is my story thus far. I really do not think a placebo effect is taking place. I had no expectations proportional to what has occurred. And since adding the clomid is the only change, i have to conclude that is what is causing the positive effects. If things change, i will certainly acknowledge them. I do not want to digress of course! Thanks fellas!
 
Disco41 said:
I have been unable to find anything that would conclude that "we know clomid does not work with TRT
Click to expand...

Yes hats off to Nelson and his moderators, the md's and the members of this site. There really is great discussion here.

Like many other medications and diseases, we learn over time that our understanding of how it all works isn't necessarily exact or precise. Yet some MD's learn how to make it work. Take for example Lyme disease. For years and years the CDC was revoking MD's medical licence's because those MD's were prescribing antibiotics for longer periods than the recommended cdc guidelines. What happened was MD's learned antibiotics took much longer to be totally effective in its treatment than the cdc understood. This is called evidenced based medicine. They learned what worked before they fully understood it. There are many other gray areas like this including clomid + trt. If we all understood trt perfectly then any endocrinologist would be able to do it properly. However this isn't the case, so it doesn't surprise me that clomid works with TRT, despite our current understanding of it all.
 
This is a great anecdotal account. And I have to commend you for challenging my original post in an extremely respectful and intelligent matter.

You have made some interesting points. In particular, the difference between shutdown and suppression. I have to admit, I still stand by my original post. However, I am getting close to being tempting to try clomid short term while on TRT and see what happens to the labs.

In the end it is not about being right, it is about getting to right


Disco41 said:
I guess it is time to come out of my shell a bit. I've been on all sorts of forums looking for a place to spend the most of my time based on the merit of discussion (professionalism, respect, and quality of knowledge). This site is fantastic, above and beyond! Thank you Nelson et al. !
I have been on TRT for exactly one year now. I am 41. My original labs were TT 420, FT 6.1. Based on my labs and symptoms, my urologist started me on TRT, 250mg/2wks. I did that and got about 50% of what i had hoped for in terms of libido, strength, energy, mood, you name it. I admit, i wanted to be 18 again. About 8 months ago i started doing 200mg every week (i wanted to accumulate the T based on the half life) b/c he wrote my last Rx wrong, so i was getting 600mg for the entire month. I then would say i found about 70% of what i had hoped, so have been doing that. And for the first time in my entire life i have now at least started to actually build muscle with my workouts. I have worked out HARD since i was 18 and have always been a hard gainer. I have been thanking God for seeing not only the fruit of my labor in the gym, but feeling more "normal" in terms of energy and libido. Then the testicular suppression began. I did not think it would bother me. But my fiance loves "the boys" despite the fact i never had a real looking set of "boys" in the first place. And seeing the sagging skin did bother me as well. I live in rural MT, hard to get in to see my Dr. 2 hrs away, but he did order a sperm count and motility, and i surprisingly passed. So he would not order HCG. To be fair, i figured my sperm would be low so i did not explain via email my aesthetic displeasure, it was purely based on my ability to fertilize with my fiance (but we are not going to try for children at this point, i just did not tell him that, hoping to get HCG based on a higher form of reason than aesthetics. I should have just been honest, i know). After researching, i saw how clomid may help, and that i could get it from Canada, so i did. I know i should not have w/o a Dr. so no need to chastise me for that, i get it. I did 50 mg for 2 days to jump start, and have been doing 25mg a day for 2 weeks. To downsize the possibility of the placebo effect, all i expected from the clomid was hopefully to gain my testicles back, and hopefully another little boost to my test for libido, mood, workout,etc. What has happened is a HUGE increase in my libido and my mood. Nothing in the gym yet (time proportional i know). I do feel 20 again. Before 2 weeks ago, i maybe woke up with wood once every 2 months. For the past 5-10 days, its every morning. I am wanting sex every single night too, rather than 2x a week, which was still a huge improvement for me while just on test. So, that is why i have been on this thread a lot. This thread is by far the most intelligent thing i have found to be a part of, along with the rest of the site. And that is why i have been offering a voice of dissent/question to those of you saying the HPTA is shutdown, and clomid does not work, and agreeing with the other success stories. My analysis of clomid, HPTA, etc at this point is this. And of course i speak only for myself and others that have had success with clomid while on TRT. The HPTA is suppressed, not shut down, while on TRT at 200 plus mg per week. Suppressed and shutdown are 2 different things, and we should acknowledge that verbage perhaps as we discuss this issue, bc there is a difference, i am sure we all would agree. I would also agree that HCG and leydig cell sensitization seems to occur with the higher dosage use. I have no problem with HCG, I just would offer at this point that it is not the only viable option perhaps. My clomid use has been short term, i know that. But that does not mean my initial results are invalid, esp when they concur with other clomid success stories with long term users. The Dr's on here seem to acknowledge this to a point, Dr. Saya i believe. I see my Dr. Tuesday 3/07/17. I plan to confess my holiday inn express medical degree decision to try clomid, ask for forgiveness and direction. I know some labs would be helpful etc. I just wanted to say that at this point, I am better after adding the clomid, so far......And there does seem to be a little less skin sagging already as well. That is my story thus far. I really do not think a placebo effect is taking place. I had no expectations proportional to what has occurred. And since adding the clomid is the only change, i have to conclude that is what is causing the positive effects. If things change, i will certainly acknowledge them. I do not want to digress of course! Thanks fellas!
Click to expand...
 
Disco41 said:
I guess it is time to come out of my shell a bit. I've been on all sorts of forums looking for a place to spend the most of my time based on the merit of discussion (professionalism, respect, and quality of knowledge). This site is fantastic, above and beyond! Thank you Nelson et al. !
I have been on TRT for exactly one year now. I am 41. My original labs were TT 420, FT 6.1. Based on my labs and symptoms, my urologist started me on TRT, 250mg/2wks. I did that and got about 50% of what i had hoped for in terms of libido, strength, energy, mood, you name it. I admit, i wanted to be 18 again. About 8 months ago i started doing 200mg every week (i wanted to accumulate the T based on the half life) b/c he wrote my last Rx wrong, so i was getting 600mg for the entire month. I then would say i found about 70% of what i had hoped, so have been doing that. And for the first time in my entire life i have now at least started to actually build muscle with my workouts. I have worked out HARD since i was 18 and have always been a hard gainer. I have been thanking God for seeing not only the fruit of my labor in the gym, but feeling more "normal" in terms of energy and libido. Then the testicular suppression began. I did not think it would bother me. But my fiance loves "the boys" despite the fact i never had a real looking set of "boys" in the first place. And seeing the sagging skin did bother me as well. I live in rural MT, hard to get in to see my Dr. 2 hrs away, but he did order a sperm count and motility, and i surprisingly passed. So he would not order HCG. To be fair, i figured my sperm would be low so i did not explain via email my aesthetic displeasure, it was purely based on my ability to fertilize with my fiance (but we are not going to try for children at this point, i just did not tell him that, hoping to get HCG based on a higher form of reason than aesthetics. I should have just been honest, i know). After researching, i saw how clomid may help, and that i could get it from Canada, so i did. I know i should not have w/o a Dr. so no need to chastise me for that, i get it. I did 50 mg for 2 days to jump start, and have been doing 25mg a day for 2 weeks. To downsize the possibility of the placebo effect, all i expected from the clomid was hopefully to gain my testicles back, and hopefully another little boost to my test for libido, mood, workout,etc. What has happened is a HUGE increase in my libido and my mood. Nothing in the gym yet (time proportional i know). I do feel 20 again. Before 2 weeks ago, i maybe woke up with wood once every 2 months. For the past 5-10 days, its every morning. I am wanting sex every single night too, rather than 2x a week, which was still a huge improvement for me while just on test. So, that is why i have been on this thread a lot. This thread is by far the most intelligent thing i have found to be a part of, along with the rest of the site. And that is why i have been offering a voice of dissent/question to those of you saying the HPTA is shutdown, and clomid does not work, and agreeing with the other success stories. My analysis of clomid, HPTA, etc at this point is this. And of course i speak only for myself and others that have had success with clomid while on TRT. The HPTA is suppressed, not shut down, while on TRT at 200 plus mg per week. Suppressed and shutdown are 2 different things, and we should acknowledge that verbage perhaps as we discuss this issue, bc there is a difference, i am sure we all would agree. I would also agree that HCG and leydig cell sensitization seems to occur with the higher dosage use. I have no problem with HCG, I just would offer at this point that it is not the only viable option perhaps. My clomid use has been short term, i know that. But that does not mean my initial results are invalid, esp when they concur with other clomid success stories with long term users. The Dr's on here seem to acknowledge this to a point, Dr. Saya i believe. I see my Dr. Tuesday 3/07/17. I plan to confess my holiday inn express medical degree decision to try clomid, ask for forgiveness and direction. I know some labs would be helpful etc. I just wanted to say that at this point, I am better after adding the clomid, so far......And there does seem to be a little less skin sagging already as well. That is my story thus far. I really do not think a placebo effect is taking place. I had no expectations proportional to what has occurred. And since adding the clomid is the only change, i have to conclude that is what is causing the positive effects. If things change, i will certainly acknowledge them. I do not want to digress of course! Thanks fellas!
Click to expand...

Great post Disco.

As I've mentioned elsewhere on EM, I occasionally use Clomid for the purpose of an SHBG boost and this may be the mechanism of your success to this point. Checking an LH/FSH would determine the amount of HPTA suppression you currently have. Post labs whenever you get them and best of luck for continued improvement.
 
Doc
Have you ever administered clomid on a patient who was on TRT and had undetectable FSH and LH while on TRT?

Dr Justin Saya said:
Great post Disco.

As I've mentioned elsewhere on EM, I occasionally use Clomid for the purpose of an SHBG boost and this may be the mechanism of your success to this point. Checking an LH/FSH would determine the amount of HPTA suppression you currently have. Post labs whenever you get them and best of luck for continued improvement.
Click to expand...
 
MikeXL said:
Doc
Have you ever administered clomid on a patient who was on TRT and had undetectable FSH and LH while on TRT?
Click to expand...

Yes and I've had several patients transfer care to me while taking Clomid + TRT concurrently, most of which had completely suppressed LH/FSH, though a handful did have measurable (albeit low) levels.
 
SERMs work differently than hCG.During a PCT,they shouldnt be used simultaneously.SERMs lower E2 and trigger GnRH to produce LH.On the contrary,hCG peptide is a gonadotropin itself,thus it inhibits GnRH.It acts as LH analoge (LHRH) and supports testosterone production in Leyding cells.HCG supports testicular atrophy during TRT.
 
I have not used clomid with TRT but I used tamoxifen (another SERM) while on TRT because of gyno issues. I had both LH and FSH tested and both were supressed. SHBG increased close to 50% and overall it made me feel like s.... but gyno was pretty much gone after a few months and never returned since then (i have just a tiny lump left that i can only feel if i really try to and no symptoms)
 
Beyond Testosterone Book by Nelson Vergel
Got my boys back, and with added benefits. The only bad side effect is that i got zits, bilateral on my posterior and superior lats. Just behind the arm pits. I've prob had 5 zits my whole life. Lots of OH and ivory soap seem to have stopped them, but they are still there. I started another post to see if clomid would keep the "boys" going while taking deca durabolin 500mg with test at 200/wk. So far, i've had a very little testicle pain but no shrinkage after 2 weeks.
 
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