What has been your experience with progesterone?

[Gianluca]

So to do 1mg with the 100mg/ ml, ur drawing up to the 1 line basically, which is just an insanely tiny amount of oil.

It is! I just called my doc and asked for a reduction in concentration to 50mg/ml, I believe empower carries a pharma grade for this, probably what you showed me in the pic

But ya I would only do 2mg of the injectable prog to start, max. 2mg should have ur levels over 1.0. Do u have a rough goal as far as where ur trying to get ur prog levels to? Or u plan on mostly going by how u feel on specific dosages?

The maximum I got from the Pregnenolone caps or scrotal Progesterone was .5 or .7,

I would look at least to get to these levels, but of course see how I feel even with a bit more, especially with my anxiety, E2 DHT and sleep . I believe years ago the range for Progesterone was going up to 1.2.

I may start with a little less, maybe 1mg or 1.5mg

 

[Gman86]

It is! I just called my doc and asked for a reduction in concentration to 50mg/ml, I believe empower carries a pharma grade for this, probably what you showed me in the pic


The maximum I got from the Pregnenolone caps or scrotal Progesterone was .5 or .7,

I would look at least to get to these levels, but of course see how I feel even with a bit more, especially with my anxiety, E2 DHT and sleep . I believe years ago the range for Progesterone was going up to 1.2.

I may start with a little less, maybe 1mg or 1.5mg

Yup, the one I showed u is the pharma inj prog thag empower carries, in the 50mg/ ml concentration.

and I think 1-1.5mg is a legit perfect dose to start. I would personally start with 1mg. @Cataceous takes around 0.6-0.7mg of injectable prog, and that brings his prog levels to around 0.6 I believe. So if that’s around the level ur looking to achieve, I wouldn’t start with more than 1mg/ day. I would start with the lowest dose that u think will give u the levels ur looking for, and titrate up as needed. Much better than starting a little too high, and not knowing whether u should decrease or increase ur dose, if u don’t feel that great. Always better to start as low as possible, and slowly titrate up, if needed. Especially if ur assessing things on how u subjectively feel, more so than lab values

and ur right, originally the prog range for men went up to at least 1.0. Possibly 1.2. I don’t remember that, but I absolutely remember the top of the range being 1.0 for years and years. I’ve referenced this vid before, but this guy recommends men to try and get their prog level close to 1.2, as long as they don’t experience negative side effects at this level

 

[Gianluca]

Yup, the one I showed u is the pharma inj prog thag empower carries, in the 50mg/ ml concentration.

and I think 1-1.5mg is a legit perfect dose to start. I would personally start with 1mg. @Cataceous takes around 0.6-0.7mg of injectable prog, and that brings his prog levels to around 0.6 I believe. So if that’s around the level ur looking to achieve, I wouldn’t start with more than 1mg/ day. I would start with the lowest dose that u think will give u the levels ur looking for, and titrate up as needed. Much better than starting a little too high, and not knowing whether u should decrease or increase ur dose, if u don’t feel that great. Always better to start as low as possible, and slowly titrate up, if needed. Especially if ur assessing things on how u subjectively feel, more so than lab values

and ur right, originally the prog range for men went up to at least 1.0. Possibly 1.2. I don’t remember that, but I absolutely remember the top of the range being 1.0 for years and years. I’ve referenced this vid before, but this guy recommends men to try and get their prog level close to 1.2, as long as they don’t experience negative side effects at this level

Thanks, if it wasn’t for you and cataceus we wouldn’t have any guidance on dosing.

I believe Progesterone really balance testosterone, the more of one, will possibly require more of the other

 

[Gman86]

Thanks, if it wasn’t for you and cataceus we wouldn’t have any guidance on dosing.

I believe Progesterone really balance testosterone, the more of one, will possibly require more of the other

The body just works in a balance system in general. It’s not an accident that dht has estrogen balancing properties, and prog has DHT and estrogen balancing properties, and the fact that testosterone can be neurotoxic without enough estrogen, and guys don’t feel good on testosterone in general without enough estrogen. And obv we all know about the importance of the estrogen to progesterone ratio in women. All the hormones we have in our system seem to all work together and affect one another. So I think it would be safe to assume that prog is needed to balance certain properties of testosterone out, and I think it’s probably safe to assume that the more testosterone a guy has in their system, as well as more of its metabolites, the more prog they probably need

 

[Gianluca]

@Gman86 an update on the injectable Progesterone,

1.5mg daily SQ brought my Progesterone to .2 ng/ml from .1. I measured it in the am, probably about 13 hours post injection.

You guys responded better with this dosage, I had same issue injecting Testosterone SubQ in the past. Something positive is doing though, I may try to go up to 2.5mg

 

[Gman86]

@Gman86 an update on the injectable Progesterone,

1.5mg daily SQ brought my Progesterone to .2 ng/ml from .1. I measured it in the am, probably about 13 hours post injection.

You guys responded better with this dosage, I had same issue injecting Testosterone SubQ in the past. Something positive is doing though, I may try to go up to 2.5mg

Wait what, only 0.2 on 1.5mg/ day?? What lab do u use? Can u link the specific prog test that u had done? What country are u in?

The fact that ur prog level came back at 0.1, even prior to the exogenous prog injections, makes me think that it might be the prog test that ur getting done that might be the issue. Idk if I’ve ever seen a prog level come back that low on a male before. Only time I’ve ever seen it come back that low was when the sensitive version was used. But that’s due to the way they measured the prog levels being different. I’ll show u some examples in myself

8-28-19
On test prop only. No HCG, no prog:
Progesterone - 0.6 (0.0-0.5ng/ml) (Quest’s non sensitive prog test)


11-2-19
Test cream applied to scrotum, no HCG, no prog:
Prog - 0.6 (0.0-0.5ng/ml) (Quest’s non sensitive prog test


11-30-19
Again on just test scrotal cream below:
Progesterone, no HCG, no prog:
Prog- 0.8 (0.0-0.5ng/ml) (quest’s non sensitive prog test)

6-24-21
Was on test, deca, 600iu’s HCG/ week. No prog:
Prog - 0.4 (0.0-0.5ng/ml) non sense prog test


Then here’s my prog level the one time I had it tested using the sensitive LC/MS version. Never tested my prog levels again using this method due to the way they measure the levels being not ideal, imo. Clearly theyre measuring levels differently if my level came back at <0.1, when it has historically never came back below 0.3, and wss coming back around 0.6-0.8 at that time

7-14-22
Test, deca, primo, 1000iu’s Pregnyl HCG/ week, no prog:
Progesterone - <0.1 (<0.3ng/ml) LC/MS (quest’s sensitive prog test)

11-22-22
Test, primo, 425iu’s Pregnyl HCG/ week, no prog:
Progesterone - 1.6 (0.0-0.5ng/ml)

Ever since those 11-22-22 labs my prog level has came back around 1.3-1.6 (0.0-0.5ng/ml). Have had it tested probably like 6-7 times since then. As recently as a week ago. Can’t figure out for the life of me why prog level continues to come back so high. Haven’t touched exogenous prog in forever. Have legit ruled out everything I’m taking. Most recently stopped taking Selegiline and HCG for a few months prior to testing. Those were basically the last two things I needed to test to see if they were the reasons why. I’ve stopped taking everything else that I’m taking, at some point, and have had prog checked. I’m completely stumped to why it keeps coming back high

Overall tho, a prog level coming back around <0.1, or 0.1, or even 0.2, is pretty abnormal, at least from what I’ve seen with myself, and other men’s labs. But as u can see, it happened to me when I had my prog level tested with the sensitive method. So I just wonder about the method that’s being used when u check ur levels.

and I know what ur probably thinking. The two tests probably use different forms of measurement. But they both measure in ng/ml. I’ll attach a couple pics. 1st pic is the reference range and unit of measurement quest uses for their non sensitive prog test, and the 2nd pic is the reference range and unit of measurement quest uses for their sensitive LC/MS prog test

 

[Gman86]

Disregard me putting the range of (0.0-0.5ng/ml) next to the non sensitive prog labs I had done at quest. I put that rsnge for my own reference. The range quest actually use is (<1.4ng/ml). I just hate any ranges that use less than in it. The 0.0-0.5ng/ml is what labcorp uses, so I always reference that range.

for the record tho, labcorp used to use the range 0.0-1.0ng/ml for years, when measuring male’s prog levels. So in my head I still think that’s the best range to reference. The reference range has obv dropped due to men’s hormone levels dropping in general, year to year

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Wait what, only 0.2 on 1.5mg/ day?? What lab do u use? Can u link the specific prog test that u had done? What country are u in?

The fact that ur prog level came back at 0.1, even prior to the exogenous prog injections, makes me think that it might be the prog test that ur getting done that might be the issue. Idk if I’ve ever seen a prog level come back that low on a male before. Only time I’ve ever seen it come back that low was when the sensitive version was used. But that’s due to the way they measured the prog levels being different. I’ll show u some examples in myself

8-28-19
On test prop only. No HCG, no prog:
Progesterone - 0.6 (0.0-0.5ng/ml) (Quest’s non sensitive prog test)


11-2-19
Test cream applied to scrotum, no HCG, no prog:
Prog - 0.6 (0.0-0.5ng/ml) (Quest’s non sensitive prog test


11-30-19
Again on just test scrotal cream below:
Progesterone, no HCG, no prog:
Prog- 0.8 (0.0-0.5ng/ml) (quest’s non sensitive prog test)

6-24-21
Was on test, deca, 600iu’s HCG/ week. No prog:
Prog - 0.4 (0.0-0.5ng/ml) non sense prog test


Then here’s my prog level the one time I had it tested using the sensitive LC/MS version. Never tested my prog levels again using this method due to the way they measure the levels being not ideal, imo. Clearly theyre measuring levels differently if my level came back at <0.1, when it has historically never came back below 0.3, and wss coming back around 0.6-0.8 at that time

7-14-22
Test, deca, primo, 1000iu’s Pregnyl HCG/ week, no prog:
Progesterone - <0.1 (<0.3ng/ml) LC/MS (quest’s sensitive prog test)

11-22-22
Test, primo, 425iu’s Pregnyl HCG/ week, no prog:
Progesterone - 1.6 (0.0-0.5ng/ml)

Ever since those 11-22-22 labs my prog level has came back around 1.3-1.6 (0.0-0.5ng/ml). Have had it tested probably like 6-7 times since then. As recently as a week ago. Can’t figure out for the life of me why prog level continues to come back so high. Haven’t touched exogenous prog in forever. Have legit ruled out everything I’m taking. Most recently stopped taking Selegiline and HCG for a few months prior to testing. Those were basically the last two things I needed to test to see if they were the reasons why. I’ve stopped taking everything else that I’m taking, at some point, and have had prog checked. I’m completely stumped to why it keeps coming back high

Overall tho, a prog level coming back around <0.1, or 0.1, or even 0.2, is pretty abnormal, at least from what I’ve seen with myself, and other men’s labs. But as u can see, it happened to me when I had my prog level tested with the sensitive method. So I just wonder about the method that’s being used when u check ur levels.

and I know what ur probably thinking. The two tests probably use different forms of measurement. But they both measure in ng/ml. I’ll attach a couple pics. 1st pic is the reference range and unit of measurement quest uses for their non sensitive prog test, and the 2nd pic is the reference range and unit of measurement quest uses for their sensitive LC/MS prog test

View attachment 39537View attachment 39538

The fact that the more sensitive test has a lower range, basically very close to zero, should not, IMO, make you question the validity of the test. It should make you question the concept that males normally have significant levels of progesterone. It has certainly made me question that.

If the narrative gets weaker the more accurate you make the test, question the narrative, not the test.

 

[Gman86]

The fact that the more sensitive test has a lower range, basically very close to zero, should not, IMO, make you question the validity of the test. It should make you question the concept that males normally have significant levels of progesterone. It has certainly made me question that.

If the narrative gets weaker the more accurate you make the test, question the narrative, not the test.

Hmmm, never thought about it like that. Interesting take. My prog level came back at <0.1 tho, do u think that I really had basically a 0 prog level at the time? Im not saying it’s impossible, but im just not sure if it’s normal for a guy to have no progesterone in their system, even on HRT where the HPTA is shut down. Do u think that having a zero prog level could be the case for a guy on HRT? Obv no right or wrong answer, since none of us know for sure, due to basically no study testing prog levels in males with a shut down HPTA. Jc what u, or anyone else has to say on the matter. Im personally skeptical that a zero prog level would be accurate

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Hmmm, never thought about it like that. Interesting take. My prog level came back at <0.1 tho, do u think that I really had basically a 0 prog level at the time? Im not saying it’s impossible, but im just not sure if it’s normal for a guy to have no progesterone in their system, even on HRT where the HPTA is shut down. Do u think that having a zero prog level could be the case for a guy on HRT? Obv no right or wrong answer, since none of us know for sure, due to basically no study testing prog levels in males with a shut down HPTA. Jc what u, or anyone else has to say on the matter. Im personally skeptical that a zero prog level would be accurate

I believe Quest when they say they have created their most sensitive and accurate test for progesterone so far, not susceptible to falsely counting other hormones and compounds as progesterone, and they find almost no progesterone in healthy men.

What component of our HPT axis is dedicated to regulating progesterone production, measuring it and adjusting production, with positive and negative feedback? Does that exist? If not, what should we infer about the importance of progesterone?

 

[Gianluca]

@Gman86

Wait what, only 0.2 on 1.5mg/ day?? What lab do u use? Can u link the specific prog test that u had done? What country are u in?

The fact that ur prog level came back at 0.1, even prior to the exogenous prog injections, makes me think that it might be the prog test that ur getting done that might be the issue. Idk if I’ve ever seen a prog level come back that low on a male before. Only time I’ve ever seen it come back that low was when the sensitive version was used. But that’s due to the way they measured the prog levels being different. I’ll show u some examples in myself

I have always been using LabCorp for all my Progesterone tests for years, and I always used the same test method, which should be the Electrochemiluminescence immunoassay (ECLIA). Range is .0ng/ml to .5ng/ml as today. Obviously here in the US

There have been many men I have seen on TRT throughout my journey finding their Progesterone at the bottom range at .1ng/ml, and I believe the test method used was the same as mine. As you probably know, I have experienced with different dosages of Pregnenolone as well, showing and increase in Progesterone from my baseline of .1ng/ml.

The different reference range of the LC/MS needs to take into account. As you wrote, your LC/MS from Quest range for Progest is .3ng/ml or below. As you mentioned, using this test method would show a lower result in ng/ml compared the non sensitive, because the ref range.

Based on your and Cataceous anecdote, as I do not think we have more, I honesty think I have the same issue I have with the Testosterone, I just do not absorb well subQ.

I would be curios to know @FunkOdyssey results on the 1.5mg, so that we have more anecdotes about how a certain dose of injectable Progesterone effect levels in the blood.

My doc initially wrote the rx for 5mg injected subQ daily, but start with 2/3mg and see how I do with it. I thought it was way too much to start with, but Looking at my result, it seems it was right to start at this dosages for me.

 

[Gianluca]

The fact that the more sensitive test has a lower range, basically very close to zero, should not, IMO, make you question the validity of the test. It should make you question the concept that males normally have significant levels of progesterone. It has certainly made me question that.

If the narrative gets weaker the more accurate you make the test, question the narrative, not the test.

Perhaps, using a different test method, yields to a different ref range for the “average” male progesterone level. This is why we shouldn’t compare two different test method even if the same unit was used, like in this case the ng/ml. We probably shouldn’t even compare same test method from two different laboratory

 

[Gianluca]

@Cataceous what laboratory and test method have you used to test your Progesterone?

 

[Gianluca]

@Gman86 I’m curious to know if you have ever seen an increase in testosterone with Progesterone supplementation

 

[Gman86]

@Gman86 I’m curious to know if you have ever seen an increase in testosterone with Progesterone supplementation

I can look back at my labs, but not sure if I was running the same HRT protocol while each time I had labs done while on exogenous prog injections. Do u think prog can even affect test levels when a person is on exogenous test?

 

[Gianluca]

I can look back at my labs, but not sure if I was running the same HRT protocol while each time I had labs done while on exogenous prog injections. Do u think prog can even affect test levels when a person is on exogenous test?

possibly, I believe I have seen my FT increasing a bit while on the scrotal Prog cream, maybe just because the anti aromatizing properties of Progest

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous what laboratory and test method have you used to test your Progesterone?

I've only used Labcorp's standard immunoassay.

possibly, I believe I have seen my FT increasing a bit while on the scrotal Prog cream, maybe just because the anti aromatizing properties of Progest

The problem with this proposed mechanism is that estradiol is only 0.3-0.6% of testosterone. Suppose you drop total estradiol by a substantial 20 pg/mL. That translates to a gain of 2 ng/dL in total testosterone, too small to discern when TT is 600+ ng/dL. The same applies to the free levels.

 

[Gianluca]

@Gman86 I hope you don't mind my questions.

You mentioned that 2mg of the injectable Progesterone brought the level to over 1.0 ng/ml, but if I understand well you already started with a baseline of more than .1ng/ml correct? just considering the start test method, basically you were not deficient in it.

I believe Cataceous started with 2.6mg, and that brought his Progesterone to .9 ng/ml, if I'm correct

 

[Gianluca]

The problem with this proposed mechanism is that estradiol is only 0.3-0.6% of testosterone. Suppose you drop total estradiol by a substantial 20 pg/mL. That translates to a gain of 2 ng/dL in total testosterone, too small to discern when TT is 600+ ng/dL. The same applies to the free levels.

then if we see a Testosterone increase with Progesterone, it makes sense thinking that Progesterone directly converted into Testosterone. I have seen this happening to some people with oral Pregnenolone while on TRT

 

[FunkOdyssey]

The problem with this proposed mechanism is that estradiol is only 0.3-0.6% of testosterone. Suppose you drop total estradiol by a substantial 20 pg/mL. That translates to a gain of 2 ng/dL in total testosterone, too small to discern when TT is 600+ ng/dL. The same applies to the free levels.

If this is real (progesterone increasing T by reducing E2), it would work the same way AIs work to increase testosterone, which is by reducing negative feedback of E2 at the pituitary level.