Advice on Low E2 Protocols

[Xerxes]

So if you've been reading the last few days I've been going through what I think is high e2 really bad. Today I am actually starting to feel the tiniest bit better. I did not have to take any xanax today and I slept most of last night (but had some rx help...but even rx wasn't working the last week).

I am still entertaining the idea getting arimidex, but would like to avoid it.

As I approach my dosage and frequency (now: 160 mg split into a tues and a friday injection), I am assuming I need to reduce the dosage as a way to reduce the E2. Should I also increase frequency? EOD at 40mg for a total of 120 mg? I am not really sure why the frequency cuts down on aromatase, but that's certainly what I read everywhere. Any advice or clarity on the mechanism? should I reduce more slowly? say 140mg split into 2...the math would be hard to split that accurately into three in the syringe.

Any advice?

my number from most recent labs:

e2 42 - range <40 HIGH .. I think this is the culprit I had it checked about a month ago when I was exploring a clinic on Long Island ,and and it was 26

fsh and Lh= less than .0.3 no surprise there

dhea 168 range 80-560

shbg 20.7. Range 10-57

free test : 18.2 Range 3.5-15.5 HIGH

free T calculated 2.6 %No range
Total Test : 693 RAnge 160-853. (This was taken the day before my Friday shot

albumin 4.7 range 3.2-4.7

My thinking is that since my Shbg is lowish kind of that is why my Free T is above range, even through my total Total T was in range, that even with a total E2 of 42 above range, my free E2 (which they don't test for), must be through the roof. Not sure if this makes sense or not. In any case, I feel like I am super sensitive to the E2...I mean my anxiety has been terrible, no energy, low libido, no morning or night wood, even when I can drag myself to the gym I can only muster some cardio (although today I was up to doing my squats..an improvement).

So far I've been doing DIM, and Calcium D - Glucarate, extra zinc and now grape seed extract. Any other products or protocols would be greatly appreciated. I understand how strong Arimidex is and would like to avoid it, but if I cant get some relief in the next week or so, I might have to try like 1/8 of a pill on injection days.

thoughts?

Thank you to everyone who has chimed in an given me advice so far. I'm trying to hang in there.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Injecting a smaller amount of testosterone more frequently ought to provide you with a steady, stable level of the hormone in your system. As a result, you avoid the spike following a single, large injection that can drive conversion to estradiol.


Why are you injecting 80mg twice weekly? It's easier to "start low and go slow" (a phrase Gene Devine loves), and then carefully move upward if more is needed. I started with 100mg/one weekly injection and shifted to 60mg every two weeks, a total of 120mg per week. Stable levels and no AI. You could consider dropping your own dose to 60mg twice a week, or even 50mg twice weekly. Give it sufficient time and see how you adjust. I agree, avoiding an AI, with the extra monitoring it entails, is a worthwhile goal.

 

[Xerxes]

Thanks for the reply... Would there be any issue with going down too quickly? Are 3 weekly injections better than 2? Should go down slow until I feel better?

I also have a question about alcohol... How bad of an e2 spike can it cause? Thanks for your help... I greatly appreciate it.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Thanks for the reply... Would there be any issue with going down too quickly? Are 3 weekly injections better than 2? Should go down slow until I feel better?

I also have a question about alcohol... How bad of an e2 spike can it cause? Thanks for your help... I greatly appreciate it.

Well, why are you now injecting a total of 160mg/weekly, divided doses? Is this where you and your doctor started, or did you find smaller amounts of testosterone weren't providing symptomatic relief?

 

[Xerxes]

After gels made my T numbers go down, we started at 100 mg per week (I decided to split into two 50 mg injections per week). After about two weeks in I was finding no symptomatic relief and emailed doc. He said I could do 200 mg a week if I wanted or 150 mg, or whatever I was comfortable with. (All with no bloods at all, just over email). I settled on 160 mg and here I am..

I know my intro to TRT was slip shod and should have had many more labs by the original doc, but I was complaining of symptoms (low libido, ed, anxiety, depression, lethargy, etc.) and he tested total T and that was my answer...I was so desperate I jumped at the chance of getting better. Should have done MUCH more research and had a better doctor. Numbers were 250 from primary (June 2014) when I went in about depression, anxiety and ed issues. he said let';s check again in 3 months. After still feeling shitty I emailed him and he referred me to the uro. Test in Oct 2014 was 272 (I had lost weight and was eating great). Still no talk of TRT. When I went back again in May 2015 it was 281. The only numbers ever tested or relayed to me were total T and I thought that was all that mattered. When I asked why my T might be low he said "Some testicles just work harder than others." Did gels and they brought my number down to 222 after a month. started shots and you know the rest. I just want to feel better in the worst way... Thanks!

 

[CoastWatcher]

There are members here who inject as frequently as every-other-day. I know of two people, not Excelmale members, who inject between 14 and 20mgs every day. They are extremely high E2 converters and this allows them to achieve great levels, solid lab values, all with no AI management. Whatever protocol you adopt, splitting your current dose into three injections, lowering the total amount of testosterone you inject but remaining on a twice weekly schedule, you will need to be patient. Can you hold and wait for a number of weeks, at least four, preferably six, while your levels stabilize? Too much change, too quickly, will send you into the ditch. One of the keys to success with TRT is patience.

 

[James]

That's a heck of a lifelong commitment to be injecting small doses everyday. I suppose those guys with really low SHBG who are big converters to E2 it's a sound protocol, but being poked 365 times a year and 4,000 times in just 11 years is more than a lot of guys want to do. That's a big daily committment. Maybe talk to your doc about an every other day schedule. I agree with Coast, please be patient.

 

[CoastWatcher]

That's a heck of a lifelong commitment to be injecting small doses everyday. I suppose those guys with really low SHBG who are big converters to E2 it's a sound protocol, but being poked 365 times a year and 4,000 times in just 11 years is more than a lot of guys want to do. That's a big daily committment. Maybe talk to your doc about an every other day schedule. I agree with Coast, please be patient.

An every day injection protocol does make you blink, doesn't it? Still, these guys, both patients of my doctor, simply couldn't get solid levels, and couldn't seem to balance an AI, they tanked like crazy every time they tried it. With a very low SHBG working against them, they were miserable. This seems to have allowed them to realize the benefits of TRT. It's such an individual ride.

 

[ERO]

It truly is individual. I have low SHBG and have done daily injections twice in the past for at least 6 months both times and felt no improvement whatsoever over twice weekly injections. However, I have both low SHBG and low E2 - I basically convert next to nothing - so perhaps that is why it was no help in my case.

Doing what you need to do to feel good is important, and if you are using insulin syringes, a daily sub-Q shot is literally painless.

 

[a_crossfitter]

An every day injection protocol does make you blink, doesn't it? Still, these guys, both patients of my doctor, simply couldn't get solid levels, and couldn't seem to balance an AI, they tanked like crazy every time they tried it. With a very low SHBG working against them, they were miserable. This seems to have allowed them to realize the benefits of TRT. It's such an individual ride.

I might have to try injecting every day. I tank hard on e2 when I take anastrozole. I currently inject Mon, wed, and Fri (.2, .2, .2)ml

 

[CoastWatcher]

I might have to try injecting every day. I tank hard on e2 when I take anastrozole. I currently inject Mon, wed, and Fri (.2, .2, .2)ml

I would certainly consider it if E2 was unbalanced. Good luck!

 

[Vince Carter]

With more frequent its NOT that its more frequent that makes a difference in the aromataze enzyme, its that it's a smaller dose (less mg) at one single time. Your low(er) SHBG of 20 I would suggest that you try it. I wouldn't cut the total you're taking now over 7 days, just divide that up and do the rest of the math. I'd stay with 160mg / 4 (injections in 6 days) so shoot 40mg EOD and see how that goes.

Speaking to commiting to the frequency of injections, once you start, and you start to feel better on it and that it's benefitting you, that'll be thing that keeps you doing it. I at one-time wanted the fewest injections and tried some fancy plan mapped out on a calendar. But I never felt good(er) until I just sucked it up and did what needed to be done to get myself better. EOD.

 

[Xerxes]

Oh thanks for the explanation... So would reducing weekly dose and breaking it up help even more? Another question: I've been taking a lot of dim this past week and some other otc stuff. I'm starting to feel a little better, but still pretty shitty... Is there any danger in taking too much Dim? Say 600-800 mg day? Also would progesterone gel help reduce e2? I've read conflicting reports on the Internet... Thanks! I really appreciate any help and all the help and comfort and advice already given...thank you thank you thank you.

 

[Vince Carter]

DIM isn't a real thing at managing E2, some say it works but it's not a serious attempt, in my book. And ive not seen anyone using progesterone cream that says its good, Nelson is against, in fact everytime I've seen it mentioned its smacked down pretty solidly.
Ive seen people shooting daily TCyp but I don't see the point in that but support theyre opinion that it works for them.