High Labs

I'm currently 62 and have been on TRT for over 5 years. My TT is 1468 ng/dL and my Estradiol is 59 pg/mL.
I'm struggling to put on muscle and have way too fat fat on my torso (gut and pecs). I've always been a fitness fanatic and workout 5 days per week with weights and some cardio.

Am I too high on the E2? With such a high TT I would expect to put on muscle easily no? Please weigh in and give me your thoughts in this.

over60andusingtrt said:

I'm currently 62 and have been on TRT for over 5 years. My TT is 1468 ng/dL and my Estradiol is 59 pg/mL.
I'm struggling to put on muscle and have way too fat fat on my torso (gut and pecs). I've always been a fitness fanatic and workout 5 days per week with weights and some cardio.

Am I too high on the E2? With such a high TT I would expect to put on muscle easily no? Please weigh in and give me your thoughts in this.

Click to expand...

Some thoughts:

• High E2 is helpful, not harmful for anabolism. T/E2 ratio looks healthy. I don't think E2 is your problem.
• What is your SHBG / Free T? If your SHBG is high, your free T may not be as impressive as the 1468 ng/dL total suggests. What's your TRT protocol?
• What are you doing for training? Mistakes here could easily be responsible for lack of progress.
• What does your diet look like? Do you track macros/calories? How much protein are you eating? Mistakes here could easily be responsible for lack of progress.
• How is your sleep? Do you use anything to track sleep quality, time in different sleep stages, oxygen saturation, like an oura ring or similar? Problems here could easily be responsible for lack of progress.
• What is your IGF-1 level? The GH/IGF-1 axis is an important complimentary driver of anabolism and fat loss which could impede progress if levels are low.

FunkOdyssey said:

Some thoughts:

• High E2 is helpful, not harmful for anabolism. T/E2 ratio looks healthy. I don't think E2 is your problem.
• What is your SHBG / Free T? If your SHBG is high, your free T may not be as impressive as the 1468 ng/dL total suggests. What's your TRT protocol?
• What are you doing for training? Mistakes here could easily be responsible for lack of progress.
• What does your diet look like? Do you track macros/calories? How much protein are you eating? Mistakes here could easily be responsible for lack of progress.
• How is your sleep? Do you use anything to track sleep quality, time in different sleep stages, oxygen saturation, like an oura ring or similar? Problems here could easily be responsible for lack of progress.
• What is your IGF-1 level? The GF/IGF-1 axis is an important complimentary driver of anabolism and fat loss which could impede progress if levels are low.

Click to expand...

Thanks Funk, I take 132mg TC spread over 3 injections per week. I don't have any data on the other metrics you mentioned. I've lifted weights my entire adult life and know my body pretty well as far as what works and what doesn't. I'm an ectomorph and have tailored my training to emphasize lots of resistance, protein and very little cardio. I have a very balanced diet, I know literally every carb, fat and protein I ingest daily.

I will get those other indicators checked. Thanks again for your response.

I have never been able to put on any muscle with TRT, either, with any known protocol. After this long, I think I have tried them all.

over60andusingtrt said:

I'm currently 62 and have been on TRT for over 5 years. My TT is 1468 ng/dL and my Estradiol is 59 pg/mL.
I'm struggling to put on muscle and have way too fat fat on my torso (gut and pecs). I've always been a fitness fanatic and workout 5 days per week with weights and some cardio.

Am I too high on the E2? With such a high TT I would expect to put on muscle easily no? Please weigh in and give me your thoughts in this.

Click to expand...

Has your strength increased?
If I understand correctly, then you have been lifting weights many years before starting TRT. Let's say you reached your genetic limit. Then you start TRT having much more androgens, continue lifting but don't see any muscle gain nor fat loss.
Your TRT dosage is not a body building cycle
Sometimes we see this fantastic TRT anecdotes with pictures before and after TRT. And often this is before TRT and before gym vs after TRT and lifting weights.

Seagal said:

If I understand correctly, then you have been lifting weights many years before starting TRT. Let's say you reached your genetic limit. Then you start TRT having much more androgens, continue lifting but don't see any muscle gain nor fat loss.
Your TRT dosage is not a body building cycle

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Right. I'm reminded of Mike Israetel asking people who are stalled on their weight gain if they're eating enough calories, and they reply, "but I'm already eating 3500 calories," or 4000 calories, or whatever it is. The number might sound high already, but the answer is still the same: eat more.

So you might say, I'm not gaining muscle, and my total T is already 1468 ng/dL. Well, ok. If you want to gain more muscle via testosterone, then you need to take more, regardless of your current level.

over60andusingtrt said:

Am I too high on the E2?

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Your estrogen is low in relation to your testosterone. Estrogen helps you lose fat, not gain it.

over60andusingtrt said:

I'm struggling to put on muscle and have way too fat fat on my torso (gut and pecs).

Click to expand...

As far as being able to build muscle, that's mostly genetics, a little bit diet and also your lifting technique. I'm not on TRT and have a Total T @ 104 ng/dL Free T @ 1.89 ng/dL, both well below normal ranges and have no problems building muscle.

FunkOdyssey said:

Right. I'm reminded of Mike Israetel asking people who are stalled on their weight gain if they're eating enough calories, and they reply, "but I'm already eating 3500 calories," or 4000 calories, or whatever it is. The number might sound high already, but the answer is still the same: eat more.

So you might say, I'm not gaining muscle, and my total T is already 1468 ng/dL. Well, ok. If you want to gain more muscle via testosterone, then you need to take more, regardless of your current level.

Click to expand...

Seriously? Go higher than 1468 ng/dL?

over60andusingtrt said:

Seriously? Go higher than 1468 ng/dL?

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I am not recommending that you increase your dose. I'm saying that if you want to keep all other variables the same, and gain more muscle as a result of testosterone, you will need to take more testosterone. It's just a factual statement, with no advice attached.

Your dose of 132 mg weekly is low in the context of testosterone use to improve body composition, as Seagal pointed out earlier.

Systemlord said:

Your estrogen is low in relation to your testosterone. Estrogen helps you lose fat, not gain it.


As far as being able to build muscle, that's mostly genetics, a little bit diet and also your lifting technique. I'm not on TRT and have a Total T @ 104 ng/dL Free T @ 1.89 ng/dL, both well below normal ranges and have no problems building muscle.

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"Silence, I kill you!"
Your posts should come with a disclaimer.

Seagal said:

"Silence, I kill you!"
Your posts should come with a disclaimer.

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I must represent a very, very small percentage of the population.

How’s that for a disclaimer?

Systemlord said:

As far as being able to build muscle, that's mostly genetics, a little bit diet and also your lifting technique. I'm not on TRT and have a Total T @ 104 ng/dL Free T @ 1.89 ng/dL, both well below normal ranges and have no problems building muscle.

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You have not been at these low levels for long enough for their impact to be felt. Six months from now, if you have maintained a total T of 100 ng/dL and free T of 2 ng/dL, I strongly doubt you will still be reporting positive results in the gym.

Remember this paper: Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

All of it works in reverse too: "Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 12–16 weeks, stabilize at 6–12 months, but can marginally continue over years."

Does anyone here have TT about 1400?

over60andusingtrt said:

Does anyone here have TT about 1400?

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Mine should be above that. I was at 1524 ng/dL back in March when I was taking 175 mg of test enanthate weekly (50 mg EOD). I'm currently taking the same dose weekly as propionate, which has more testosterone per milligram (25 mg ED). I'm also dabbling with hCG, which might add another 100-200 ng/dL on top. I'll find out when I run labs soon.

over60andusingtrt said:

I'm currently 62 and have been on TRT for over 5 years. My TT is 1468 ng/dL and my Estradiol is 59 pg/mL.
I'm struggling to put on muscle and have way too fat fat on my torso (gut and pecs). I've always been a fitness fanatic and workout 5 days per week with weights and some cardio.

Am I too high on the E2? With such a high TT I would expect to put on muscle easily no? Please weigh in and give me your thoughts in this.

Click to expand...

Having a whopping TT 1468 ng/dL means nothing without knowing where your FT sits let alone how many days post-injection you were hitting such!

Although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of T responsible for the positive effects.

Even then with a whopping TT 1468 ng/dL you would need to have an absurdly high SHBG in order to have a not so stellar FT level.

To put this in perspective a man with a TT 1400-1500 ng/dL and a very high SHBG of 80 nmol/L would still have a high FT!

How many days post-injection were labs done?

If anything you need to find out where your trough FT (lowest point) before next injection sits.

You could easily calculate your FT if you know where your SHBG sits.

Need to know where your FT truly sits before jumping to any conclusions.

Although having healthy FT levels is important when it comes to gaining muscle/strength not only is following a proper diet/training protocol critical to making progress but more importantly genetics will have the final say.

When using a therapeutic dose of T whether serum levels remain moderate, high-end, slightly above the physiological range one will see a change in body composition (muscle/strength, fat loss) to a certain degree depending on diet/training and of course genetics.

Gains will not be indefinite when using therapeutic doses long-term and regardless trt doses are not going to take you well beyond your natural genetic potential.

Most when training natty make their best gains within the first 1-2 years and during the first year is where most notice the biggest impact.

The longer you train the harder it becomes to add pure muscle tissue.

Keep in mind genetics plays a huge role.

Aim here would be achieving a healthy FT level combined with a proper diet/exercise regimen if your goal is to maintain muscle let alone experience improvements in body composition (gain muscle/lose adipose).

This can easily be achieved using therapeutic dose of T.

If you goal is to pack on muscle mass/increase strength well beyond your genetic potential and sport that fake looking chemically enhanced build that unfortunately many tend to idolize then you would need to abuse T/AAS.

over60andusingtrt said:

Does anyone here have TT about 1400?

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Need to stop getting caught up on TT!

FT is what truly matters.

FunkOdyssey said:

You have not been at these low levels for long enough for their impact to be felt. Six months from now, if you have maintained a total T of 100 ng/dL and free T of 2 ng/dL, I strongly doubt you will still be reporting positive results in the gym.

Remember this paper: Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

All of it works in reverse too: "Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 12–16 weeks, stabilize at 6–12 months, but can marginally continue over years."

Click to expand...

Going from a healthy let alone high-end or high FT and pulling the plug only to end up with a low let alone absurdly low FT one's strength/muscle mass will plummet much quicker and no one regardless even those with top tier genetics trying to still follow a proper diet/training protocol would be able to maintain let alone build muscle/increase strength with FT in the gutter!

You would be spinning your f**king wheels here!




*As far as being able to build muscle, that's mostly genetics, a little bit diet and also your lifting technique. I'm not on TRT and have a Total T @ 104 ng/dL Free T @ 1.89 ng/dL, both well below normal ranges and have no problems building muscle.


This is coming from a guy who supposedly eats 8 pounds of red meat/day!

Get back to me on how many grams of protein/day that is LMFAO!

Clearly has no clue how to do carnivore let alone last I heard he was looking into getting his pro card!

FunkOdyssey said:

Some thoughts:

• High E2 is helpful, not harmful for anabolism. T/E2 ratio looks healthy. I don't think E2 is your problem.
• What is your SHBG / Free T? If your SHBG is high, your free T may not be as impressive as the 1468 ng/dL total suggests. What's your TRT protocol?
• What are you doing for training? Mistakes here could easily be responsible for lack of progress.
• What does your diet look like? Do you track macros/calories? How much protein are you eating? Mistakes here could easily be responsible for lack of progress.
• How is your sleep? Do you use anything to track sleep quality, time in different sleep stages, oxygen saturation, like an oura ring or similar? Problems here could easily be responsible for lack of progress.
• What is your IGF-1 level? The GH/IGF-1 axis is an important complimentary driver of anabolism and fat loss which could impede progress if levels are low.

Click to expand...

Hey Funk, I used to ingest almost 200g of protein each day, but once I hit my late 50s, and I started getting fat, I backed off. Like I said before, I'm an ectomorph and need tons of protein and heavy weight training to see results. The challenge is getting that 1g of protein per pound of body weight without consuming lots of calories. I find that I can only eat so much before I have to start forcing myself to eat. I get 100g of protein thru a very lean whey protein, but the rest needs to come from regular eating and I just don't wanna eat that much. But I do fear that I'm not getting enough protein now. Got any ideas?

over60andusingtrt said:

I get 100g of protein thru a very lean whey protein, but the rest needs to come from regular eating and I just don't wanna eat that much. But I do fear that I'm not getting enough protein now. Got any ideas?

Click to expand...

Yes: eat meat! Alot of it!

FunkOdyssey said:

Mine should be above that. I was at 1524 ng/dL back in March when I was taking 175 mg of test enanthate weekly (50 mg EOD). I'm currently taking the same dose weekly as propionate, which has more testosterone per milligram (25 mg ED). I'm also dabbling with hCG, which might add another 100-200 ng/dL on top. I'll find out when I run labs soon.

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Where do you buy your HCG and have you noticed any benefits?