No achiness but some minimal shrinkage (maybe ~10-15%). I'd like to not let my natural production die down completely, but hCG is unbearably estrogenic for me. Once I've dialed in Test + Primo I'm going to try Kisspeptin-10. I've seen some anecdotes of guys doing really well on it even with subQ injections (as opposed to IV as in the studies).
No achiness but some minimal shrinkage (maybe ~10-15%). I'd like to not let my natural production die down completely, but hCG is unbearably estrogenic for me. Once I've dialed in Test + Primo I'm going to try Kisspeptin-10. I've seen some anecdotes of guys doing really well on it even with subQ injections (as opposed to IV as in the studies).
For me at least that would lead to some severe ups and downs. The dose of hCG I would have to run to retain even middle of the range Free T levels would probably give me high E2 symptoms that would make my life miserable, not including the withdrawal symptoms from the Test.
I think in general if you can tolerate hCG, running a small dose constantly is probably a better bet. It's hard to know for sure but I don't think there is evidence of any desensitization unless perhaps at ridiculous dosages. Something like 350-700iu/week is most likely safe to run "forever".
I do get very significant benefits from hCG in terms of libido and cognition, mood as well. So if the Primo is a strong enough AI to control the extra aromatization from the hCG, I'll be more than happy to run it. Even at 50iu/day it made a massive positive difference for me until E2 ruined the party.
That's my theory as well, oftentimes in those anecdotes there is some implication that E2 levels got too low. For ex the guy will say he had great libido for a while and then it completely crashed, or something along those lines.
I've started keeping track of different symptoms daily in a spreadsheet - libido, erection quality, morning wood, water retention, mood, cognition, etc... - so hopefully I'll be able to follow what's happening and/or trace it back after the fact once I realize I've been looking at women for a few weeks the way I'd look at a plank of wood.
Systemlord
Member
Also, only half of the testicles respond to hCG, the other half equals none response according to Dr. Saya.
This is why men typically achieve higher testosterone on TRT when compared to hCG.
Oh interesting, didn’t know that. I was a pretty good responder, to pregnyl HCG, at the time. 2000iu’s/ week consistently had my total test level around 1200, and 1000iu’s/ week had my total test level around 600. It was actually pretty crazy how consistent my test levels would be on the HCGA mono, at the time.
Now I feel like pregnyl HCG is like injecting water. For some reason I just don’t respond the same to it. Does nothing to prevent testicular atrophy, doesn’t seem to boost my test levels at all, and downstream hormones like progesterone and DHEA are unaffected by taking it. Compare to when I was on HCG mono, and my prog and dhea levels were always higher than not being on HCG
At least take a moment to read about Sertoli cells and Leydig cells so your posts on the subject have some redeeming value. You'll find that Sertoli cells respond to FSH, while Leydig cells respond to LH and hCG, which is presumably what Dr. Saya was alluding to. TRT-induced testicular atrophy is caused by a lack of both LH and FSH. With hCG you are replacing the LH, but not the FSH. Therefore, hCG alone may not completely reverse the atrophy due to the lack of Sertoli cell stimulation. However, Sertoli cells do not contribute to testosterone production.
The reason why men can "achieve higher testosterone on TRT when compared to hCG" is that in TRT you can increase the dose arbitrarily to increase free and total testosterone. With hCG you are limited by what the Leydig cells can produce, and worse, excessive amounts of hCG actually reduce testosterone production compared to lower amounts.
Fernando Almaguer
Well-Known Member
So hcg alone is not the answer for fertility. I wonder if I can get FSH via compouding pharmacy
It is for plenty of guys anecdotally, so I wouldn't make that assumption. I think the ones who fail to regain fertility on hCG (assuming pharma, dosed high enough, etc...) are in the minority.
I think there are studies showing fertility preservation on TRT with hCG alone. There you go: Indications for the use of human chorionic gonadotropic hormone for the management of infertility in hypogonadal men
"It was later shown that not only is intratesticular testosterone increased with co-administration hCG but spermatogenesis is preserved as well at one year follow up".
To be precise, that study is about preservation not recovery of fertility, but anecdotally it extends to recovery I think at a very high success rate.
Depends. I’ve had two kids while on TRT and HCG, and I’m sure thousands of other men have as well, and some not even using HCG. But then there’s obv some guys that need more, which is where things like FSH, HMG and Clomid, come into play
Testicular size comes primarily from the sertoli cells, right, Cat?
I don't know for sure, but this work says there are about four times as many Sertoli cells as Leydig cells. If the cellular volumes are similar then it would imply that Sertoli cells are the bigger contributor to total volume.
madman
Super Moderator
Seminiferous tubules/germ cells.
* Since 80% of testicular volume consists of germinal epithelium and seminiferous tubules, a reduction in these cells is usually manifested by testicular atrophy and this reflects the loss of both spermatogenesis and Leydig cell function
*Spermatogenesis is largely dependent on the action of FSH on Sertoli cells coupled with high intra-testicular testosterone concentrations. Within the seminiferous tubules, only Sertoli cells possess receptors for both FSH and testosterone. Numerous signaling pathways are activated when FSH binds to FSH receptors on these cells. It acts synergistically with testosterone to increase fertility and the efficiency of spermatogenesis
Figure 2: Ontogeny of the evolution of testicular volume from birth to adulthood. Seminiferous cords (Sertoli cells + germ cells) are the main component of the testes. From birth and during the prepubertal period (i. e., until 9–14, Tanner stage 1), the volume of seminiferous cords is determined by Sertoli cells, whereas germ cell proliferation determines testicular volume during puberty (i. e., Tanner stages 2 to 5) (adult spermatogenesis). This Figure was modified using BioRender (Scientific Image and Illustration Software | BioRender) under the authorization of[1]. © 2019 Elsevier Ltd
WHAT MEN SHOULD KNOW ABOUT TESTICULAR SHRINKAGE AND TESTOSTERONE THERAPY
If you're considering testosterone replacement therapy, understanding its effects on testicular size is crucial. Learn why shrinkage occurs, the treatments available to mitigate this side effect, and why testicle size usually has minimal impact on your overall health. Urologist John Smith, MD...
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Menopur Effects On Ejaculate
Quick questionsl guys. Has anyone taken Menopur and seen a difference in ejaculate volume? I've been on TRT a few years along with HCG and my ejaculate volume is definitely less than it was before. Me and my GF are trying to conceive so I'm including Menopur in my stack but I wanted to know if...
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aloetard
Unofficial Disciple of Cataceous
Man crush reported. Thanks for taking the time to type that out. You are misinfo's worst nightmare. Do you have an official internet fan club? How do I join?
over60andusingtrt
Member
Try Bimix. Zero side-effects, much safer than Trimix and rock-hard erections within 5 mins of injecting.
maybe some good info in there but his comment about formula needed can not be good for anyone longterm
Seagal
Well-Known Member
Sadly we might need to consider information from such videos. Hope that some day scientific research provides us a clear understanding and a healthy yet effective solution.
Man, HCG was a godsend for plumpness of nuts, ejac volume, raise in testosterone and e2 about 10-15 years ago. Now I don’t think it hardly does anything for me. Maybe a mega dose will spike libido a little but it’s just not effective anymore. I’ve heard it’s in the production process that changed everything but idk.
I’ve used it off n on pretty much 15 years now.
Vince
Super Moderator
December 4th Will be my 10th year anniversary on trt. I've been injecting 500 IU of HCG the whole time I've been on trt. I originally was injecting 500 IU every 3 1/2 days. Now I inject 500 IU every third day. After I have my labs in October, I think I will try 500 IU of HCG daily along with a lower testosterone dose.
Dude same!!! Hcg used to do all of the above for me, plus increase my test levels, plus increase my DHEA-S levels, plus increase my prog levels. Now it’s literally like injecting water. And I use prescribed Pregnyl. I swear there’s less powder in the vials too nowadays compared to years ago. I’m almost positive of it. Like much less
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