Weight Loss - Norepinephrine/Dopamine/TRT

StephCurryFtw · Mar 14, 2024

Not sure what thread to put this under—

I have gained about 51 pounds since 2018 of mostly abdominal fat. I have noticed at a higher weight, I am not feeling as though my TRT is working long enough. I’m guessing it is getting converted into E2 and/or not hitting the receptor sites as my Free T is always high.

My ADHD med is seeming to worsen my weight loss issue because once the med wears off, I am then less motivated and less driven to exercise the remainder of the day. I take 10-60 mg Focalin daily as 10 mg tabs, so 6 doses of 10 mg Focalin.

How much of an impact does Testosterone while being a heavier body weight affect TRT for the gels for men like me with low SHBG? I can guess it is more, but I am wondering if the same is true for dopamine and norepinephrine from stimulants as well as testosterone at higher body weights with more body fat %?

t_spacemonkey · Mar 14, 2024

never heard of dopamine or norepinephrine having a direct effect on weight. are you on gel? i have super low shbg as well, and what works best for me is daily IM Tprop injections. your body fat percentage will definitely have an effects on e2. i lost 20lb in the last 4 months (25 more to go), and my e2 got down from 60 to 50.
stimulants can be a bitch. do they mess up your sleep? I take phentermine 2x week currently to aid with fat loss, but can't go more then that, since it is so bad on sleep.
6x dosing of focalin seems a lot too. one would think that stimulants would aid in fat loss. maybe you need to workout earlier in the day?
and last but most important diet. there is like a 1000 opinions on this, but many, including me have really good success with carnivore. what I do is carnivore+fruit/honey around workouts. you need to stop all processed stuff, especially seed oils, thing like chips, granola bars etc. they mess up the fat metabolism badly. focus on protein, saturated fat and natural carbs.

StephCurryFtw · Mar 15, 2024

t_spacemonkey said:
never heard of dopamine or norepinephrine having a direct effect on weight. are you on gel? i have super low shbg as well, and what works best for me is daily IM Tprop injections. your body fat percentage will definitely have an effects on e2. i lost 20lb in the last 4 months (25 more to go), and my e2 got down from 60 to 50.
stimulants can be a bitch. do they mess up your sleep? I take phentermine 2x week currently to aid with fat loss, but can't go more then that, since it is so bad on sleep.
6x dosing of focalin seems a lot too. one would think that stimulants would aid in fat loss. maybe you need to workout earlier in the day?
and last but most important diet. there is like a 1000 opinions on this, but many, including me have really good success with carnivore. what I do is carnivore+fruit/honey around workouts. you need to stop all processed stuff, especially seed oils, thing like chips, granola bars etc. they mess up the fat metabolism badly. focus on protein, saturated fat and natural carbs.

All good thoughts. The diet stuff - I try to avoid meat when I can and limit dairy. Plant-based has always been easier on my GI tract. Meat I am generally OK with, but the sodium content tends to push my BP up too much, especially with the stimulants.

As far as TRT, I’m on the T gels and have been since 2016. I started TRT around 15 years old, but had a small test at age 14 with Axiron Gel and injections at 16. Testopels at 18-19 years old. Gels ever since 19 and I am 28 now.

I gained a substantial amount of weight after losing 45 pounds. Then, I lost 20 pounds more. Then, I gained 35 pounds back. Then, I lost 15 more pounds. Then again, I gained 45 pounds. I lost 12.5 pounds more, but gained about 35 pounds back. I struggle with keeping weight off.

I have suffered from severe OCD as well as ADHD with OCD being the most debilitating. My cortisol runs borderline high on a consistent basis. It is lower when I don’t sleep as well, yet my BP is higher when I don’t sleep as well (plus being a lot heavier than I used to be).

I tried to come down on some of my psychiatric med doses. I became mentally unstable and had to go back up on the doses. I tried this a second time a few years later and the same thing happened, except that time I was hospitalized (I’ve done two rounds in psych facilities for severe OCD).

It is like this back and forth of picking between mental wellness and physical wellness for me. ADHD improves when my TT or FT is higher. I presume FT is the bigger factor. But yeah, it is like I thrive more physically when I’m off psychotropics, but I start to get depressed off them after a point and then need the meds again which then causes increased hunger and consequently, me unable to contain myself eating too much. This cycle has gone on for 12 years now.
I have struck the best balance I can, but I’m struggling to keep the weight off I lose. I’ve been able to shave 10-15 pounds off, but it comes right back. I am prone to bloating easily with water retention in the abdomen.

I am working with a nutritionist right now, and I am not eating as many calories as before, but I’m still getting enough fiber, carbs is tough to gauge for me, unsaturated fats, and protein I try to keep around 70-80g.

With more low-intensity cardio consistently, that should help a lot. I lift twice a week, but that’s about all my body can handle at the moment. I hope to get to three days or even four a week eventually, but I’m just starting up again for the 1700th time.

t_spacemonkey · Mar 15, 2024

I've been having mental health struggles in the past, and withdrew from some benzos (decade ago), so those things are not foreign to me. this can be really rough. I took me like 2-3 y to recover, and another 2-3 to thrive, but as of today I am doing amazing. I never though i get here. TRT definitely played a role. I encourage you to do some deeper research on the carnivore diet. there is a lady called Valerie Anne Smith who got off many meds going on a pure beef diet I believe. another person i recommend is dr Chris Palmer, he wrote a book on metabolic health and mental health. i wish I knew this earlier. good luck

Systemlord · Mar 15, 2024

StephCurryFtw said:
How much of an impact does Testosterone while being a heavier body weight affect TRT for the gels for men like me with low SHBG?

The shorter half life formulations of TRT, orals and topicals typically have less side effects.

What are your TT, FT and E2 levels?

StephCurryFtw said:
The diet stuff - I try to avoid meat when I can and limit dairy. Plant-based has always been easier on my GI tract.

That's unfortunate, because you can lose insane amounts of weight, cure obesity, chronic disease, cancer, crohn's disease, treat autism, cure arthritis on the carnivore diet.

StephCurryFtw said:
I’m still getting enough fiber, carbs

Neither of these are essential nutrients, fat is an essential nutrient. Red meat has everything we humans require.

While you may lose weight in the short-term with this eating low fat, it may leave you feeling hungry due to low levels of fat and may put you at risk for overeating carbohydrates.

In addition, on a reduced fat diet, you may not get all the key nutrients your body needs. Your body needs dietary fat to absorb vitamins A, D, E and K. By limiting fat, your body may not get necessary nutrients it needs.

StephCurryFtw said:
I lift twice a week, but that’s about all my body can handle at the moment.

If you want more bang for your buck, deadlift is the king of all workouts and this workout determines your overall strength!

StephCurryFtw · Apr 20, 2024

Systemlord said:
The shorter half life formulations of TRT, orals and topicals typically have less side effects.

What are your TT, FT and E2 levels?

That's unfortunate, because you can lose insane amounts of weight, cure obesity, chronic disease, cancer, crohn's disease, treat autism, cure arthritis on the carnivore diet.

Neither of these are essential nutrients, fat is an essential nutrient. Red meat has everything we humans require.

While you may lose weight in the short-term with this eating low fat, it may leave you feeling hungry due to low levels of fat and may put you at risk for overeating carbohydrates.

In addition, on a reduced fat diet, you may not get all the key nutrients your body needs. Your body needs dietary fat to absorb vitamins A, D, E and K. By limiting fat, your body may not get necessary nutrients it needs.

If you want more bang for your buck, deadlift is the king of all workouts and this workout determines your overall strength!

There are a lot of things I must point out in that my friend. Keep in mind, I am purely offering my take on these things from what I myself have learned and been taught. I intend zero disrespect nor any negative connotations towards anything you've mentioned. I am not "currently" on a reduced-fat diet, which has many, health detriments like you mentioned. I really don't overeat carbs by any means, but this is an area for me that fluctuates because I don't know if we are talking simple vs. complex carbs or total?

Fiber is indeed an essential component of the diet, especially with managing GI health, blood sugar regulation, and reducing cholesterol levels that eating red meats constantly will create problems with. Red meats are some of the worst meats to eat (especially on a frequent basis) when it comes to the risk of various cancers albeit being a good source for B12, complete protein source, etc. I am not trying to say you are wrong here because I am not one that sees value in arguments, but rather I just would like to share my perspective on what I have learned throughout my time. Fat is indeed a necessary requirement in the diet which you mentioned and nailed spot-on perfect. Deadlift is also a tremendous exercise! I totally agree.

How Eating Fiber Can Help You Lose Belly Fat

One type of fiber, soluble fiber, has been linked to belly fat loss. This article explains how this fiber can help you lose belly fat and avoid gaining it.

www.healthline.com

What’s the beef with red meat? - Harvard Health

Despite a recent study’s claim that consuming red and processed meat is not linked to health conditions, most global health organizations maintain that lowering consumption can reduce a p...

www.health.harvard.edu

Health effects associated with consumption of unprocessed red meat: a Burden of Proof study - Nature Medicine

Using the burden of proof analytical tool, a meta-analysis found weak or no evidence of associations between unprocessed red meat consumption and increased risk of six cardiometabolic disease and cancer outcomes.

www.nature.com

(lengthy study, but you can just read the conclusions, discussion/abstract, main points, etc. if you'd like)

StephCurryFtw · Apr 20, 2024

t_spacemonkey said:
I've been having mental health struggles in the past, and withdrew from some benzos (decade ago), so those things are not foreign to me. this can be really rough. I took me like 2-3 y to recover, and another 2-3 to thrive, but as of today I am doing amazing. I never though i get here. TRT definitely played a role. I encourage you to do some deeper research on the carnivore diet. there is a lady called Valerie Anne Smith who got off many meds going on a pure beef diet I believe. another person i recommend is dr Chris Palmer, he wrote a book on metabolic health and mental health. i wish I knew this earlier. good luck

I love Chris Palmer. I've known about him for ages. Thanks for the reply!

Cataceous · Apr 21, 2024

Systemlord said:
...
That's unfortunate, because you can lose insane amounts of weight, cure obesity, chronic disease, cancer, crohn's disease, treat autism, cure arthritis on the carnivore diet.
...

Mostly unproven claims based on anecdotes. The subject is beaten to death on the web. A good summary line: "Champion adds that there [are] 'no known long-term health benefits' of the carnivore diet, and supporters 'seem to ignore the mountains of quality research that has proven repeatedly that plant-heavy diets are best for long-term health.'"[R] Some other arguments against the diet here.

Systemlord said:
... Red meat has everything we humans require.
...

Any long-term studies to back this up? If the carnivore diet is bad then eating only red meat is worse. "Variety is key even within a carnivore diet to ensure a comprehensive nutrient profile. Including different meats and organ meats can help ... Diversifying animal-based food sources helps mitigate the risk of nutrient deficiencies commonly associated with restrictive diets."[R]

MrGraves22 · Aug 2, 2024

I’ve been in a similar spot—gained weight and found my TRT didn’t seem as effective. From my experience, higher body fat can indeed impact how well testosterone gels work, especially with low SHBG. The conversion to estrogen might be higher with more fat, affecting how you feel.

As for ADHD meds, I get the struggle. I used to take a similar medication and found that once it wore off, staying motivated was tough. I found that using tools from www.exercise.com to set up structured workout plans and reminders really helped me stay on track, even on days when motivation was low. Balancing everything can be tricky, but finding what works best for your body and routine makes a big difference.

Seagal · Aug 2, 2024

StephCurryFtw said:
All good thoughts. The diet stuff - I try to avoid meat when I can and limit dairy. Plant-based has always been easier on my GI tract. Meat I am generally OK with, but the sodium content tends to push my BP up too much, especially with the stimulants.

As far as TRT, I’m on the T gels and have been since 2016. I started TRT around 15 years old, but had a small test at age 14 with Axiron Gel and injections at 16. Testopels at 18-19 years old. Gels ever since 19 and I am 28 now.

I gained a substantial amount of weight after losing 45 pounds. Then, I lost 20 pounds more. Then, I gained 35 pounds back. Then, I lost 15 more pounds. Then again, I gained 45 pounds. I lost 12.5 pounds more, but gained about 35 pounds back. I struggle with keeping weight off.

I have suffered from severe OCD as well as ADHD with OCD being the most debilitating. My cortisol runs borderline high on a consistent basis. It is lower when I don’t sleep as well, yet my BP is higher when I don’t sleep as well (plus being a lot heavier than I used to be).

I tried to come down on some of my psychiatric med doses. I became mentally unstable and had to go back up on the doses. I tried this a second time a few years later and the same thing happened, except that time I was hospitalized (I’ve done two rounds in psych facilities for severe OCD).

It is like this back and forth of picking between mental wellness and physical wellness for me. ADHD improves when my TT or FT is higher. I presume FT is the bigger factor. But yeah, it is like I thrive more physically when I’m off psychotropics, but I start to get depressed off them after a point and then need the meds again which then causes increased hunger and consequently, me unable to contain myself eating too much. This cycle has gone on for 12 years now.
I have struck the best balance I can, but I’m struggling to keep the weight off I lose. I’ve been able to shave 10-15 pounds off, but it comes right back. I am prone to bloating easily with water retention in the abdomen.

I am working with a nutritionist right now, and I am not eating as many calories as before, but I’m still getting enough fiber, carbs is tough to gauge for me, unsaturated fats, and protein I try to keep around 70-80g.

With more low-intensity cardio consistently, that should help a lot. I lift twice a week, but that’s about all my body can handle at the moment. I hope to get to three days or even four a week eventually, but I’m just starting up again for the 1700th time.

Maybe there are alternative OCD meds that are less correlated with weight gain.
You could try a GLP-1 agonists to curb the eating cravings.

Regarding your question about T, fT, E2; you should compare your lab results. You didn't provide any information. Maybe a higher T dosage would benefit you.

Vince · Aug 2, 2024

Carnivore diet is good for people who have a carb addiction. Many people cannot control their eating of carbs. So if you give up all carbs your body should adjust to that. You will be able to lose weight and be healthier. For people who do not have a carb addiction. I do not think carnivore diet would be healthy.

Seagal · Aug 2, 2024

Doesn't have to be carnivore, some form of ketogenic diet with 1-2 cheat days with moderate healthy carbs worked well for me.
Some psychiatric meds really impact appetite and metabolism. It can be very hard to maintain weight by limiting calories AND stay mentally stable.

Moderation can be a huge problem. Best thing to start with is to not buy/eat anymore chips, sweet snacks, ..., processed foods.

FunkOdyssey · Aug 2, 2024

In my experience, carnivore diet ad libitum is not sufficient to become very lean (let's call that 10-12% body fat). If you are overweight / obese, I'm sure it would help you get down to a reasonable and healthy BMI without paying any special attention to calories. However, I personally stabilized somewhere around 17-18% body fat and stayed there for the last several years (well short of a six pack).

If you want to do better than that, you'll probably have to go a step further and do what the pros do: measure and track everything you put in your mouth. That's been a game changer for me and enabled me to start losing significant body fat. Highly recommend the MacroFactor app for this purpose.

Vince · Aug 3, 2024

FunkOdyssey said:
In my experience, carnivore diet ad libitum is not sufficient to become very lean (let's call that 10-12% body fat). If you are overweight / obese, I'm sure it would help you get down to a reasonable and healthy BMI without paying any special attention to calories. However, I personally stabilized somewhere around 17-18% body fat and stayed there for the last several years (well short of a six pack).

If you want to do better than that, you'll probably have to go a step further and do what the pros do: measure and track everything you put in your mouth. That's been a game changer for me and enabled me to start losing significant body fat. Highly recommend the MacroFactor app for this purpose.

When someone starts the carnivore lifestyle it can take up to 6 months before they start losing weight. It can take that long for the body to start adjusting to eating no carbs. Then they will start to adjust their food intake.

FunkOdyssey · Aug 3, 2024

Vince said:
When someone starts the carnivore lifestyle it can take up to 6 months before they start losing weight. It can take that long for the body to start adjusting to eating no carbs. Then they will start to adjust their food intake.

I've eaten pure carnivore or carnivore/fruit (90% meat 10% fruit) for at least five years now and hovered around that 17-18% body fat the entire time, which translates to a healthy weight/BMI and healthy non-overweight appearance. But again, not very lean, and not six-pack territory. I'm just making the point that most people will not effortlessly achieve an elite body composition eating ad libitum no matter how good the diet is.

If you look at Dr. Anthony Chaffee, he's one of the top carnivore docs and influencers, and advocates ad libitum carnivore eating. He is a trained athlete, well muscled, and looks quite healthy. He's not very lean though either, certainly not 10-12% (maybe 15% in his case).

Seagal · Aug 3, 2024

Vince said:
When someone starts the carnivore lifestyle it can take up to 6 months before they start losing weight. It can take that long for the body to start adjusting to eating no carbs. Then they will start to adjust their food intake.

I'm back in ketosis after now about one week into my fat loss diet.

Thread 'Maximum Fat Loss Calculator' Maximum Fat Loss Calculator

Thread 'Fat loss diet optimization ++' Fat loss diet optimization ++

excelnelg · Aug 3, 2024

From my experience, there are meds, stimulants specifically, that will straight up screw up your metabolism. Consider that all this back and forth about diet and even the effects of your testosterone exist in balance with what it has going against it. You can't put out a raging fire with a thimble of water. The ADHD meds might be what needs to change.

Vince · Aug 3, 2024

FunkOdyssey said:
I've eaten pure carnivore or carnivore/fruit (90% meat 10% fruit) for at least five years now and hovered around that 17-18% body fat the entire time, which translates to a healthy weight/BMI and healthy non-overweight appearance. But again, not very lean, and not six-pack territory. I'm just making the point that most people will not effortlessly achieve an elite body composition eating ad libitum no matter how good the diet is.

If you look at Dr. Anthony Chaffee, he's one of the top carnivore docs and influencers, and advocates ad libitum carnivore eating. He is a trained athlete, well muscled, and looks quite healthy. He's not very lean though either, certainly not 10-12% (maybe 15% in his case).

View attachment 46652

What's the reason for eating fruit?

FunkOdyssey · Aug 3, 2024

Vince said:
What's the reason for eating fruit?

On pure carnivore, a few things were not quite optimal. Sleep was a bit too short, heart rate variability was a bit too low, and I would occasionally get muscle cramps presumably related to electrolyte imbalance. Including a couple pieces of fruit resolves all of that. There are trade-offs involved: when I add fruit, I lose some of the razor sharp brain function of pure carnivore and can cause myself some GI distress and joint pain if I go too far with it.

I'm a special case though - my tolerance of carbs is awful in terms of digestion and inflammation they cause. I have some kind of evil microbiome from hell and the only way I've found to manage it effectively is to starve it into submission.

Weight Loss - Norepinephrine/Dopamine/TRT

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