Permanent Damage from Estradiol Crash

[happinessintegral]

Long story short, I’ve been on 180mg of test per week for a year split into 3 doses a week of 60mg. Also have been taking 0.25mg of armidex with each injection for a total of 0.75mg per week. About 2 months ago, it became apparent I crashed my estrogen. So I stopped taking arimidex, after a week I got blood work done, my test was at 1097, estradiol at 9.8. After about day 10, I felt better so I took 0.25 mg of arimidex and it crashed for another 5 days or so. Been struggling to manage my levels since. It’s been 3 weeks since my last AI dose and I still feel aweful. Can’t get out of bed, having extreme lethargy, not much appetite, extreme depression and anxiety, dry skin, and I itch a lot. How much longer is this gonna last?

 

[Vettester Chris]

OK, so you crashed your E2, it's trying to rebound, then it's not even back up out of single digits and you start taking more AI??

The body is designed for homeostasis! Stay on your TRT regiment, maybe look at adding some micronized DHEA at night to also help with some of the downstream conversion. Ditch the AI for the time being. If you keep a balanced program in place you shouldn't need any AI, that's my take at least.

 

[happinessintegral]

OK, so you crashed your E2, it's trying to rebound, then it's not even back up out of single digits and you start taking more AI??

The body is designed for homeostasis! Stay on your TRT regiment, maybe look at adding some micronized DHEA at night to also help with some of the downstream conversion. Ditch the AI for the time being. If you keep a balanced program in place you shouldn't need any AI, that's my take at least.

You’re right, I should have waited on it, but now it’s been 3 weeks of not taking an AI and I still haven’t recovered. It seems like my body aromatizes less than it used to, is that common for guys to not need an AI after a while on the same dose?

 

[CoastWatcher]

You're right, I should have waited on it, but now it's been 3 weeks of not taking an AI and I still haven't recovered. It seems like my body aromatizes less than it used to, is that common for guys to not need an AI after a while on the same dose?

What prompted the prescribing of anastrozole to begin with? Where did your standard estradiol sit when you and your doctor added it? What symptoms were you presenting with? To make it a part of a protocol in the absence of confirmed high e2, and without actual symptoms is asking for trouble. An AI is a good, and at times necessary, drug, but all too often it is added without due care.

 

[Vince]

Not everyone uses an AI, I been on TRT for about 3 1/2 years and never needed or used an AI.

 

[lowe2sucks]

I had awful symptoms for few years after I took too much AI.. nothing helped high dose T, dhea, hcg only time made me feel better but I am not back to where I was
one thing that is made me feel very sad even after so much time is lack of pleasure from activities i used to enjoy (some call it depression, the official term is anhedonia) this one didn't resolve even after years off AI

 

[madman]

I had awful symptoms for few years after I took too much AI.. nothing helped high dose T, dhea, hcg only time made me feel better but I am not back to where I was
one thing that is made me feel very sad even after so much time is lack of pleasure from activities i used to enjoy (some call it depression, the official term is anhedonia) this one didn't resolve even after years off AI

I would say lack of pleasure can be a result of one having a neurotransmitter imbalance especially dopamine.

Is there a possibility that when one uses/abuses testosterone/aas using high doses that it can cause a permanent dysfunction in neurotransmitter production/sensitivity.

People suffering from depression or psychological disorder due to genetics have an imbalance (dopamine/serotonin) which definitely can cause a lack of pleasure in life.

 

[lowe2sucks]

yes and that was caused by e2 crashes in my opinion because I never had it before e2 crashes never any mood issues.
https://news.yale.edu/2000/12/01/estrogen-deprivation-leads-death-dopamine-cells-brain
Estrogen deficiency leads to apoptosis in dopaminergic neurons in the medial preoptic area and arcuate nucleus of male mice. - PubMed - NCBI
Estrogen is essential for maintaining nigrostriatal dopamine neurons in primates: implications for Parkinson's disease and memory. - PubMed - NCBI
take a look at these studies.. they all show that estrogen deprivation/deficiency is very damaging to neurons inside your brain that produce dopamine.. it causes them to die which is permanent condition I believe.. thats worse than low testosterone in my opinion If I would be able to go back I would never take AI and trt

 

[madman]

yes and that was caused by e2 crashes in my opinion because I never had it before e2 crashes never any mood issues.
https://news.yale.edu/2000/12/01/estrogen-deprivation-leads-death-dopamine-cells-brain
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15555924
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11102464
take a look at these studies.. they all show that estrogen deprivation/deficiency is very damaging to neurons inside your brain that produce dopamine.. it causes them to die which is permanent condition I believe.. thats worse than low testosterone in my opinion If I would be able to go back I would never take AI and trt

You are right that estradiol is important to brain health but issues regarding dopamine have many other factors at play.

Trust me I personally suffered from severe depression since the age of 16 as it runs in my family and had a long time battle.

I know how it feels to experience absolutely no pleasure from life and how horrible it can make someone feel mentally/physically let alone the effects it can have on ones life as one would truly never know unless they experienced it.

 

[lowe2sucks]

estradiol is also important for dopamine neurons which produce dopamine.. if half of your dopamine neurons will die due to multiple e2 crashes your brain simply won't be able to produce enough dopamine so that causes one to be moody, sad, no drive and so on.. also increased risk for parkinson disease.. wouldnt wish this on anyone and unless you take dopamine drugs you can't get rid of that mood state it's permanent unless brain can create new dopamine producing neurons
gyno and water retention is walk in the park compared to what damage too low e2 does to humans especially to males.

 

[FeelingLost]

snip...

Is there a possibility that when one uses/abuses testosterone/aas using high doses that it can cause a permanent dysfunction in neurotransmitter production/sensitivity.

snip...

yes and that was caused by e2 crashes in my opinion because I never had it before e2 crashes never any mood issues.

snip... estrogen deprivation/deficiency is very damaging to neurons inside your brain that produce dopamine.. it causes them to die which is permanent condition I believe.. thats worse than low testosterone in my opinion If I would be able to go back I would never take AI and trt

Lowe2 have you not admitted here on the forum you abused testosterone/aas with high doses? Did you ever consider crashing your E2 was the straw that broke the camels back and you have trashed your neurotransmitter for life?

In the 18 months I have been a member here only two guys have reported not being able to recover from a E2 crash and they both admitted they ran multiple cycles.

If I would be able to go back I would never take AI and trt

I can't believe you are blaming your condition on TRT with everything else you have done to your body.

 

[lowe2sucks]

I consider it as possibility.. But it's weird it all started after e2 crash. I didn't mean to blame trt for this I came off as trt unfriendly which isn't the case.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Long story short, I’ve been on 180mg of test per week for a year split into 3 doses a week of 60mg. Also have been taking 0.25mg of armidex with each injection for a total of 0.75mg per week. About 2 months ago, it became apparent I crashed my estrogen. So I stopped taking arimidex, after a week I got blood work done, my test was at 1097, estradiol at 9.8. After about day 10, I felt better so I took 0.25 mg of arimidex and it crashed for another 5 days or so. Been struggling to manage my levels since. It’s been 3 weeks since my last AI dose and I still feel aweful. Can’t get out of bed, having extreme lethargy, not much appetite, extreme depression and anxiety, dry skin, and I itch a lot. How much longer is this gonna last?

Yes, you can potentially feel bad from crashing into the single digits. The first time I crashed into single digits I felt like crap for a month or two then felt better, I just recently crashed my E2 to 6 and had absolutely no symptoms of low E2. Your topic says "permanent damage" yet you don't give a rationale why you think you have permanent damage. I know many bodybuilders who crash their E2 to undetectable levels for contests multiple times a year and they rebound fine within a couple weeks to a couple months.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I would say lack of pleasure can be a result of one having a neurotransmitter imbalance especially dopamine.

Is there a possibility that when one uses/abuses testosterone/aas using high doses that it can cause a permanent dysfunction in neurotransmitter production/sensitivity.

People suffering from depression or psychological disorder due to genetics have an imbalance (dopamine/serotonin) which definitely can cause a lack of pleasure in life.

Neurotransmitters being the sole component for causing depression and anxiety is based off poor studies and pharma wanting to push drugs that act on neurotransmitters. Do neurotransmitters play a key role in homeostasis? absolutely, but in my profession opinion (having years of working with psychiatric patients) they are completely overrated. There was a case study where this guy was born without an enzyme to convert dopamine and serotonin, so he had microscopic levels of both in his body, he had a few physical ailments which improved when they supplemented him with L-Tryptophan, the kicker is he had no mood problems even with tiny amounts of serotonin and dopamine in his body. In my opinion, the biggest factor in mood problems starts with the gut and problems with methylation.

http://kellybroganmd.com/depression-serotonin/

 

[Argus]

The e2 crash may be what triggered your symptoms, but it is possible that something else could be why you continue to feel them. My e2 crashed a lot over several months last year as I was getting dialed in, and it caused extreme fatigue that no amount of caffeine could get rid of. I finally got my e2 back up to healthy levels, but the fatigue remained. Turns out that my Cortisol had also crashed as a result of trying to compensate for low e2 symptoms with caffeine. Cut out the caffeine for a while and symptoms vanished. It's definitely worth getting more labs done to see if it could be something else.

 

[lowe2sucks]

it's possible about cortisol but I really think it's due to low dopamine... I felt like this when I had withdrawal from party drugs (im not user used only few times).. like that deep depression with totally flat mood.. and there is a proof crashed e2 causes low dopamine you can't deny it.
look at this thead

https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/7ykv8l

I survived 2 major crashed during last 4 years.. I wasn't able to fully recover from first crash now I feel even worse
now as my e2 goes up I feel even worse.. i have no idea why

 

[cmatt15]

it's possible about cortisol but I really think it's due to low dopamine... I felt like this when I had withdrawal from party drugs (im not user used only few times).. like that deep depression with totally flat mood.. and there is a proof crashed e2 causes low dopamine you can't deny it.
look at this thead

https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/7ykv8l

I survived 2 major crashed during last 4 years.. I wasn't able to fully recover from first crash now I feel even worse
now as my e2 goes up I feel even worse.. i have no idea why

Brother I applaud your fortitude and journey . As someone who has battled with depression and anxiety myself I know the struggle and the intricacies /complexity that goes into neurotransmitter balance .

Having said that ... I’m also a big believer in the power of your mind and body in returning to homeostasis and am hard pressed to believe that you are permanently damaged forever .

For years the medical community believed neurons in the brain couldn’t regenerate through neurogenic process...now we now they were wrong.

There are things like lions mane mushroom , hyperthermia therapy (heat shock proteins /neurogenis) and much more that will allow your body to adapt and overcome the situations when the medical community has no explanation .

I guess what I’m trying to say is ...never give up looking for answers and don’t take for granted the power of your body healing and regenerative properties if your properly supply it with the right herbs, vitamins, nutrients , antioxidants etc. and give it a fighting chance to regenerate over time, especially in the toxic environment we live in.

 

[Tgrappler]

I'm going to add that it's not permanent. However for me it took more than two months to recover.

Maybe I got better physically even sooner, but debilitating depression and anxiety were so severe that I could not come back mentally for a while.

I've done everything from hypnotherapy to yoga to completely clean eating (when I could eat), meditation, walking 6-10 miles daily.

Took a long time and I'm still working on making a "come back" to my normal life. Lots of lessons learned in the process.
Never taking AI, unless my E2 gets "dangerously" high. And even then no more than .125mg and maybe once a month. So far having pretty good results with DIM, zinc, magnesium, B complex, B12 specifically, occasionally shilajit, melatonin and cortisol balancing.

 

[Lite]

I supposedly crashed my E2, never took labs initially during that time though. I used arimidex monoteraphy for about 3-4 months with varying dosages of like 0.25-0.5mg ed or eod. I quit cold turkey. I never had E2 issues before and what I can remember my baseline E2 before this was quite low actually around ~15pg/ml. I can't remember if it began right before I quit or after I quit but I started feeling really shitty. Hot flashes/sweating almost 24/7. Itchy skin, scalp, stomach, breast area. Hair thinning. Severe, severe fatigue with tired eyes. Shortness of breath etc. etc. It has been ~2 years since the initial teraphy, I've made the mistake of taking some AI in between mistakenly (probably) thinking my issues was due to high E2. In blood, there seems to be no issue. E2 (sensitive) is/has been about 25-30 pg/ml and recently measured my E1, it was little under middle of the range but I am not sure what is the optimal E1 levels in male. I feel horrible like dead inside. I struggled with depression before this but this whole situation made it like 10x worse. I am now working with a doctor who theorized we could try to bring up my aromatase with something like hcg or testosterone to see if it would help my symptoms. I don't get this at all, I've given it plenty of time. I also get chest pains from time to time which have led me to E.R several times but nothing serious was ever found. Only thing that comforts me is that when I go for a walk, if it would be cardiac source one would assume that exercise would make the chest pain appear/make it worse but I've never get chest pain while walking. But my cardio tolerance is shit, I get out of breath very easily. I've read that low estrogen could lead to microvascular disease of heart.. This is just a nightmare and I am hoping that I can get to the bottom of this issue soon. I feel like 80 year old man. Only theory I have is that this is some type of receptor issue, upregulation.. whatever. My blood does not show anything grossly abnormal unfourtunately.

 

[Tgrappler]

I supposedly crashed my E2, never took labs initially during that time though. I used arimidex monoteraphy for about 3-4 months with varying dosages of like 0.25-0.5mg ed or eod. I quit cold turkey. I never had E2 issues before and what I can remember my baseline E2 before this was quite low actually around ~15pg/ml. I can't remember if it began right before I quit or after I quit but I started feeling really shitty. Hot flashes/sweating almost 24/7. Itchy skin, scalp, stomach, breast area. Hair thinning. Severe, severe fatigue with tired eyes. Shortness of breath etc. etc. It has been ~2 years since the initial teraphy, I've made the mistake of taking some AI in between mistakenly (probably) thinking my issues was due to high E2. In blood, there seems to be no issue. E2 (sensitive) is/has been about 25-30 pg/ml and recently measured my E1, it was little under middle of the range but I am not sure what is the optimal E1 levels in male. I feel horrible like dead inside. I struggled with depression before this but this whole situation made it like 10x worse. I am now working with a doctor who theorized we could try to bring up my aromatase with something like hcg or testosterone to see if it would help my symptoms. I don't get this at all, I've given it plenty of time. I also get chest pains from time to time which have led me to E.R several times but nothing serious was ever found. Only thing that comforts me is that when I go for a walk, if it would be cardiac source one would assume that exercise would make the chest pain appear/make it worse but I've never get chest pain while walking. But my cardio tolerance is shit, I get out of breath very easily. I've read that low estrogen could lead to microvascular disease of heart.. This is just a nightmare and I am hoping that I can get to the bottom of this issue soon. I feel like 80 year old man. Only theory I have is that this is some type of receptor issue, upregulation.. whatever. My blood does not show anything grossly abnormal unfourtunately.

I don't get it. You are not on TRT right now? But have been taking AI?

Even if you were on TRT in the past, you should still be on it. Your symptoms might be caused by other things, but you didn't provide the numbers. Also on your E2 what is the actual number from the recent test? And what is the scale of "normal".