Not tolerating Test Prop?

[Cataceous]

Thanks @Cataceous...
Last question, in terms of the enanthate/prop mix.. I'm assuming it would take much longer to stabilise on this protocol vs the phenylpronionate due to the much longer half life of the enanthate? What would you theorise is a sensible way of moving to this mix from daily subq 10.5mg prop, minimising sides expected from such a transition?

Intuitively, I like the idea of controlling the trough levels with enanthate and merely adjusting for peak and variation with prop. Thanks

NB: when I say mix, I'm referring to your current prop daily and enanthate EOD protocol

Probably it would take at least three weeks to stabilize with enanthate, and a similar amount or a few days more with cypionate, using half-lives of 4.5 and 5 days respectively.

For a really gradual transition off of only propionate I would immediately add the full dose of the second ester, e.g. enanthate, and then gradually taper the propionate dose so that after two weeks +/- it's at the desired long-term level. I didn't bother with this procedure during my transition—I just went immediately to final doses, which presumably led to drop in average levels followed by a buildup over the next few weeks. If there were side effects from this they were too subtle for me to notice. It might be different when moving to a higher percentage of the longer ester, where you'd be more likely to see hypogonadal-type levels in the beginning.

An alternative approach is to front-load the longer ester. You inject a large dose upfront, equivalent to what would be present in you if you were already at steady state. Then you can immediately reduce the propionate dose.

 

[R2D2]

Thanks @Cataceous

I'll give this a try and update this thread with the subjective outcome. Fingers crossed there is enough of an improvement!

 

[R2D2]

@Cataceous Thought I’d check in; are you still on your Enanthate/Propionate protocol?

Acknowledging that I ought to have allowed more time, I tried phenylpropionate for about 1.5 weeks. I found that I felt quite ‘flat’ much of the time (if that makes sense); I didn’t feel great.

I’m tempted to try the E/P blend but there never appears to be a good time due to work commitments..

@FLguy123 Did you find something that is working for you?

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous Thought I’d check in; are you still on your Enanthate/Propionate protocol?
...

Yes, in December I tried 4.5 mg TE EOD along with 5.5 mg TP daily. I liked that ok, but now I'm trying 4.5 mg TE E6D along with 6 mg TP daily, admittedly close to just propionate, but with an average dose a little lower than I've tried before.

 

[FLguy123]

I’ve been back to the typical protocol of test cyp and hcg split into two injections per week for about 2 months now. 100mg test and 800iu hcg per week. Typical honeymoon period of feeling above average for several weeks and now back to lethargy, brain fog, low libido, etc. I just got my labs back and I’ll give it another few weeks and I’ll try to experiment with a cyp/prop mix. Open to other suggestions

 

[Cataceous]

... Open to other suggestions

• Experiment with changing doses up or down every one or two weeks.
• Experiment to find the shortest disruption needed to recreate the honeymoon period—i.e. is a one-week switch to propionate enough make things good with the switch back to cypionate?
• Experiment with adding neurotransmitter-boosting supplements, such as NALT, GPC, etc.
• Experiment with adding the occasional dose of scrotal testosterone cream, only once every week or two.
• Experiment with adding small doses of DHT-based steroids, if legal where you are.
• Measure prolactin and if elevated over baseline then experiment with micro-doses of cabergoline.

 

[R2D2]

• Experiment with changing doses up or down every one or two weeks.
• Experiment to find the shortest disruption needed to recreate the honeymoon period—i.e. is a one-week switch to propionate enough make things good with the switch back to cypionate?
• Experiment with adding neurotransmitter-boosting supplements, such as NALT, GPC, etc.
• Experiment with adding the occasional dose of scrotal testosterone cream, only once every week or two.
• Experiment with adding small doses of DHT-based steroids, if legal where you are.
• Measure prolactin and if elevated over baseline then experiment with micro-doses of cabergoline.

Wow, so there really is no 'catch all bullet' I just finished some part time studying while working and if it was not for 'modafanil' I would have been overtaken by the fatigue. Stopped taking modafanil and the lethargy associated with protocol etc. has returned. It's like I'm a different person - dont' care for much, taking it too easy etc.

Did the weekly TE / daily TP work a little better for you? I don't recall swinging around so many roundabouts when I was on the gel (there was acne, bloating etc.). Is there a consensus that injections are the better way to go?

 

[FLguy123]

I’m still struggling with finding a balance. Everything seems to come with major pros and cons for me with all protocols and what works for some clearly does not work for all. Very frustrating to say the least

 

[Cataceous]

...
Did the weekly TE / daily TP work a little better for you? I don't recall swinging around so many roundabouts when I was on the gel (there was acne, bloating etc.). Is there a consensus that injections are the better way to go?

I'm on a complicated protocol that includes 3 mg TP daily and 12 mg TE E3D, also 220 IU hCG E3D and no AI. In terms of cognition and motivation, this is the best I've felt in years. However, sexual function and libido are not good compared to when I was on TE only. Still trying to sort out whether the androgens are contributing to the differences, or if it's mainly other factors.

No consensus on injections. There are some guys giving vocal support to transdermal testosterone, and it's assumed that high DHT is counterbalancing high estradiol. My preference is injections, however.

 

[Stylo]

I tried to get through all of the science talk, funny thing is that none of it mattered to the OP. Lol. One thing is for sure. 13-15mg of T a day, is low, and wouldnt be enough for most folks on TRT. No need to max out, but what if youre still androgen deficient?

 

[Cataceous]

... One thing is for sure. 13-15mg of T a day, is low, and wouldnt be enough for most folks on TRT. No need to max out, but what if youre still androgen deficient?

Natural testosterone testosterone production is 3-9 mg per day. Even if you're referring to testosterone cypionate rather than testosterone, 13-15 mg represents more testosterone than what 95+% of the population makes naturally. Guys on TRT are typically testing at serum testosterone troughs and dosing to make these high normal. The reality is that with less frequent dosing this often puts serum peaks into supraphysiological territory.

 

[Stylo]

Still not enough T. Hes def nowhere near supraphysio

 

[Cataceous]

Still not enough T. Hes def nowhere near supraphysio

If he responds to propionate similarly to the way I do then his peak testosterone is possibly as high as 1,400 ng/dL. Straight propionate can cause very large daily excursions.

 

[R2D2]

I'm on a complicated protocol that includes 3 mg TP daily and 12 mg TE E3D, also 220 IU hCG E3D and no AI. In terms of cognition and motivation, this is the best I've felt in years. However, sexual function and libido are not good compared to when I was on TE only. Still trying to sort out whether the androgens are contributing to the differences, or if it's mainly other factors.

No consensus on injections. There are some guys giving vocal support to transdermal testosterone, and it's assumed that high DHT is counterbalancing high estradiol. My preference is injections, however.

Hi Cataceous,

I've finally found about 10 days this holiday to change my protocol. Thought I'd check in with you to enquire whether you stayed with this protocol?

I have been on 10-11mg TP daily subq. I've been getting by - but it has been a struggle (fluctuating energy/motivation, acne etc.). I am now wondering whether I should switch to 12.5mg Te daily subq. But from memory, I had elevated E2 when I was last on Te, and any form of AI made symptoms worse.

I'm also tempted to go back to the gel - from memory, I felt the best on this, however, experienced bloating and water retention. Certainly looked my worst but felt my best.

Any thoughts you can share would be really great!

R2

 

[Cataceous]

Hi Cataceous,

I've finally found about 10 days this holiday to change my protocol. Thought I'd check in with you to enquire whether you stayed with this protocol?

I have been on 10-11mg TP daily subq. I've been getting by - but it has been a struggle (fluctuating energy/motivation, acne etc.). I am now wondering whether I should switch to 12.5mg Te daily subq. But from memory, I had elevated E2 when I was last on Te, and any form of AI made symptoms worse.

I'm also tempted to go back to the gel - from memory, I felt the best on this, however, experienced bloating and water retention. Certainly looked my worst but felt my best.

Any thoughts you can share would be really great!

R2

I see you read my GnRH thread too, which is more reflective of what I've done most of this year. The recap: Except for briefly during the transition period, I didn't do quite as well with daily propionate as with the fairly constant serum levels provided by EOD enanthate. My hypothesis is that the supraphysiological daily fluctuations were too much. The solution was to dampen the variations by mixing enanthate and propionate to better mimic normal daily testosterone variation. This worked well, but it took the addition of GnRH and kisspeptin, and the elimination of hCG to really make me feel more like I did before hypogonadism struck.

Dose reductions have been part of this. For me, baseline TRT was taking a total 63 mg enanthate per week, which resulted in fairly constant serum testosterone around 800 ng/dL. This is with SHBG around 30 nMol/L, leading to above-average, though not excessive, free testosterone. Another hypothesis of mine is that the daily peak of testosterone is what provides many of the benefits. This would mean that a protocol giving me a daily peak of 800 ng/dL and a much lower trough would in many ways be comparable to having a constant level of 800 ng/dL. However, this allows for a lower total dose of testosterone, which may help to prevent side effects, such as high estradiol. I've experimented with taking as little as 2.8 mg TE and 2.1 mg TP daily. This is equivalent to only 37 mg T cypionate per week! Yet it still felt ok, and peak testosterone was in the 500s ng/dL. I'm currently at 3.2 mg TE and 2.4 mg TP, putting peak testosterone closer to 700 ng/dL.

As for your particular situation, if you're contemplating daily injections anyway then I'd encourage eventually trying a custom enanthate/propionate blend. If you don't have previous experience with fairly constant serum testosterone then a trial with daily TE is useful, both to see what it's like and because it allows you to develop a dose-response relationship. My data show that free testosterone responds very linearly to dose. There are some theoretical reasons to believe this should be true in general. Anyway, this data helps you to estimate the kinds of swings in serum testosterone you can expect when you experiment with various proportions of TE and TP. For me, a ratio by weight of 4 parts TE to 3 parts TP gives a daily variation from peak to trough of around 40%, which is similar to what's seen in normal young men.

 

[R2D2]

I see you read my GnRH thread too, which is more reflective of what I've done most of this year. The recap: Except for briefly during the transition period, I didn't do quite as well with daily propionate as with the fairly constant serum levels provided by EOD enanthate. My hypothesis is that the supraphysiological daily fluctuations were too much. The solution was to dampen the variations by mixing enanthate and propionate to better mimic normal daily testosterone variation. This worked well, but it took the addition of GnRH and kisspeptin, and the elimination of hCG to really make me feel more like I did before hypogonadism stuck.

Dose reductions have been part of this. For me, baseline TRT was taking a total 63 mg enanthate per week, which resulted in fairly constant serum testosterone around 800 ng/dL. This is with SHBG around 30 nMol/L, leading to above-average, though not excessive, free testosterone. Another hypothesis of mine is that the daily peak of testosterone is what provides many of the benefits. This would mean that a protocol giving me a daily peak of 800 ng/dL and a much lower trough would in many ways be comparable to having a constant level of 800 ng/dL. However, this allows for a lower total dose of testosterone, which may help to prevent side effects, such as high estradiol. I've experimented with taking as little as 2.8 mg TE and 2.1 mg TP daily. This is equivalent to only 37 mg T cypionate per week! Yet it still felt ok, and peak testosterone was in the 500s ng/dL. I'm currently at 3.2 mg TE and 2.4 mg TP, putting peak testosterone closer to 700 ng/dL.

As for your particular situation, if you're contemplating daily injections anyway then I'd encourage eventually trying a custom enanthate/propionate blend. If you don't have previous experience with fairly constant serum testosterone then a trial with daily TE is useful, both to see what it's like and because it allows you to develop a dose-response relationship. My data show that free testosterone responds very linearly to dose. There are some theoretical reasons to believe this should be true in general. Anyway, this data helps you to estimate the kinds of swings in serum testosterone you can expect when you experiment with various proportions of TE and TP. For me, a ratio by weight of 4 parts TE to 3 parts TP gives a daily variation from peak to trough of around 40%, which is similar to what's seen in normal young men.

Thanks for this, insightful as always!

I, too, agree with your synthesis; having been on daily TP for over a year, I find the daily variation excessive. It's bearable, but far from optimal. Are you no longer on the GnRH protocol? Is it correct to understand that you are currently on daily 3.2 TE/2.4 TP? In your view, how does this compare to your previous protocol in this thread (Daily 3 TP / E3D 12.5 TE)?

Curious, how does one generally interpret TE dosing? For instance, in the case of daily 3.2 TE, is it correct to multiply this by 3 to estimate daily level (to account for when TE levels stabilise in c.3 weeks)? If this assumption is correct, your current dosing would translate to 12mg each day. Taking account of the ester, this reduces to 1.992 TP + 6.912 TE = 8.904mg total testosterone per day. Is this thinking correct?

I accept your reasoning for this protocol, that is, to achieve a more normal daily variation, so I am keen to try it! For how long have you been using this method? Have you experienced any issues? Given the long half life of the TE ester, is it necessary to dose daily? Just to add, my SHBG was measured at 22 about two years ago. I've been meaning to get this measured again, but will probably do that after baselining on a new protocol..

Apologies for the string of questions; I don't get the opportunity to change my protocol often. Grateful for the clarity.

 

[Cataceous]

Thanks for this, insightful as always!

I, too, agree with your synthesis; having been on daily TP for over a year, I find the daily variation excessive. It's bearable, but far from optimal. Are you no longer on the GnRH protocol? Is it correct to understand that you are currently on daily 3.2 TE/2.4 TP? In your view, how does this compare to your previous protocol in this thread (Daily 3 TP / E3D 12.5 TE)?

Curious, how does one generally interpret TE dosing? For instance, in the case of daily 3.2 TE, is it correct to multiply this by 3 to estimate daily level (to account for when TE levels stabilise in c.3 weeks)? If this assumption is correct, your current dosing would translate to 12mg each day. Taking account of the ester, this reduces to 1.992 TP + 6.912 TE = 8.904mg total testosterone per day. Is this thinking correct?

I accept your reasoning for this protocol, that is, to achieve a more normal daily variation, so I am keen to try it! For how long have you been using this method? Have you experienced any issues? Given the long half life of the TE ester, is it necessary to dose daily? Just to add, my SHBG was measured at 22 about two years ago. I've been meaning to get this measured again, but will probably do that after baselining on a new protocol..

Apologies for the string of questions; I don't get the opportunity to change my protocol often. Grateful for the clarity.

The GnRH is still part of the protocol, and also the daily 3.2 mg TE/2.4 mg TP. The low-normal LH and FSH I achieve with the GnRH stimulates little, if any endogenous testosterone production. Fortunately it's still enough to provide the benefits of hCG, and then some, without the excessive aromatization. The earlier dosing of ED 3 mg TP / E3D 12.5 mg TE presumably was yielding somewhat higher serum testosterone, but subjectively it was comparable.

You interpret TE dosing verbatim. That is, 3.2 mg per day is exactly that. Testosterone content is 72%, so this is providing 2.3 mg pure T per day. The 2.4 mg TP is 83.7% testosterone, so total daily T intake is 4.3 mg, towards the lower end of the normal range of 3-9 mg/day. Translating to serum levels is where it gets interesting, and is dependent on the individual, affected by things like SHBG, metabolic clearance rate, whether steady state has been reached, etc.

I have been dosing with a TP/TE combination for over a year. I think the benefits are generally subtle, though I'd expect more significant results in guys who can't find a dosing sweet spot where benefits are present and side effects are minimal. For me at least, the lower testosterone overnight helps with sleep. I have had no problems related to the mixed-ester protocol. The one trade-off I've noticed with decreased dosing in general is in somewhat reduced athleticism. But it's been a worthwhile exchange overall. The 5-day half-life of TE means that daily dosing is not required. That's why I was originally including it only every three days. But in the end it was less work to mix the esters in a separate vial and inject the combination daily. I didn't notice any subjective changes from that, though it's possible there were minor changes to the pharmacokinetics.

Measuring serum testosterone when on this mixed-ester protocol is imprecise. The trough levels are likely to be noisy due to the propionate. The peak levels, which for me appear to occur 2-3 hours post-injection, are less noisy, but still nothing like the stability I had on EOD TE. This is why I like the pre-calibration with a longer ester. Once you can say with pretty good confidence that your average free testosterone equals a known constant times your average dose then subsequent measurements are less critical. The main thing in moving to the ester mixture is to figure out your absorption rate for propionate, which then lets you tune the ester ratio. Presumably you have some trough measurements on various doses of TP? If you can figure out your average dose-response to testosterone then you have the information you need.

 

[R2D2]

The GnRH is still part of the protocol, and also the daily 3.2 mg TE/2.4 mg TP. The low-normal LH and FSH I achieve with the GnRH stimulates little, if any endogenous testosterone production. Fortunately it's still enough to provide the benefits of hCG, and then some, without the excessive aromatization. The earlier dosing of ED 3 mg TP / E3D 12.5 mg TE presumably was yielding somewhat higher serum testosterone, but subjectively it was comparable.

You interpret TE dosing verbatim. That is, 3.2 mg per day is exactly that. Testosterone content is 72%, so this is providing 2.3 mg pure T per day. The 2.4 mg TP is 83.7% testosterone, so total daily T intake is 4.3 mg, towards the lower end of the normal range of 3-9 mg/day. Translating to serum levels is where it gets interesting, and is dependent on the individual, affected by things like SHBG, metabolic clearance rate, whether steady state has been reached, etc.

I have been dosing with a TP/TE combination for over a year. I think the benefits are generally subtle, though I'd expect more significant results in guys who can't find a dosing sweet spot where benefits are present and side effects are minimal. For me at least, the lower testosterone overnight helps with sleep. I have had no problems related to the mixed-ester protocol. The one trade-off I've noticed with decreased dosing in general is in somewhat reduced athleticism. But it's been a worthwhile exchange overall. The 5-day half-life of TE means that daily dosing is not required. That's why I was originally including it only every three days. But in the end it was less work to mix the esters in a separate vial and inject the combination daily. I didn't notice any subjective changes from that, though it's possible there were minor changes to the pharmacokinetics.

Measuring serum testosterone when on this mixed-ester protocol is imprecise. The trough levels are likely to be noisy due to the propionate. The peak levels, which for me appear to occur 2-3 hours post-injection, are less noisy, but still nothing like the stability I had on EOD TE. This is why I like the pre-calibration with a longer ester. Once you can say with pretty good confidence that your average free testosterone equals a known constant times your average dose then subsequent measurements are less critical. The main thing in moving to the ester mixture is to figure out your absorption rate for propionate, which then lets you tune the ester ratio. Presumably you have some trough measurements on various doses of TP? If you can figure out your average dose-response to testosterone then you have the information you need.

Thanks for this, very useful. For some benign reason, I was under the impression that TE stacked.

 

[Cataceous]

Thanks for this, very useful. For some benign reason, I was under the impression that TE stacked.

There is a stacking effect when you first start, but you're using up less testosterone than you're putting in until steady state is reached, at which point on average you're using up the same amount that you're putting in. For example, suppose a eunuch has essentially zero serum testosterone. He starts injecting 10 mg per day of TE. Now suppose that after enough time passes this leads to steady serum T levels of 800 ng/dL. Assume the absorption rate of TE is about 13% per day. The first day after starting this protocol he will have used up 1.3 mg TE and serum T may be around 104 ng/dL. In the second day he will use up 1.3 mg from that day's injection plus 13% of the leftover from the previous day (0.13 * 8.7 mg), for a total second day use of 2.43 mg, and a serum level of around 194 ng/dL. This buildup continues with each passing day until the amount of testosterone used up each day matches whats being injected each day. This makes it easy to calculate how much unabsorbed TE is in his body at steady state: 0.13 * buildup = 10 mg. So the total buildup is 77 mg TE. In fact, you can use that factor of 7.7 to estimate the average buildup of TE or TC in the body. If a guy is injecting 100 mg TC each week then the average buildup of TC in his body is 100 mg / 7 * 7.7 = 110 mg TC. Because the dosing is weekly the buildup will vary considerably above and below the average over each week.

 

[R2D2]

There is a stacking effect when you first start, but you're using up less testosterone than you're putting in until steady state is reached, at which point on average you're using up the same amount that you're putting in.

Thanks, very thorough response! I have put the attached plan together. Does this seem like a reasonable approach? Any thoughts would be appreciated.