Hello, 60yo starting TRT.

[Grendl]

Hi All.

I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks, see where that puts me, adjust accordingly with an eye toward getting higher levels/no sides.

I'm a life long skinny-guy runner type athlete, have noticed in the last 5 years that pretty much anything physical I do (running, lifting, OCR, tennis, whatever) is just getting *hard* -- recovery times just get longer and longer, performance gets worse, and overall activities that used to make me happy now feel like work.

I'm mainly interested in TRT as a way to maybe allow me to continue to enjoy the physical stuff that I love doing -- it would be great if I could get another 10 years of running/lifting/sports, while recovering faster and enjoying it more.

All advice is appreciated, thanks.

 

[Vince]

You may want to consider HCG. To keep testicle size.

It would be interesting to see your prelabs.

When I first started trt, I had to donate blood every 8 weeks, to keep my HCT in range. Thankfully after about 3 years my HCT has stabilized and I no longer have to donate blood.

 

[Mountain Man]

I started at 62 and am now 67. You are the perfect age to start and your reasons and expectations are sound. I started at 100mg per week and have moved up slowly to 150 per week. I do one shot per week and I keep it simple. No AI needed and the HCG is not needed, at least for me. Testiicle shrinkage is noticeable only to me. My wife of 34 years has never noticed any change, nor has my urologist on a recent exam. Get on a sound routine and play the long game. Energy was up around 2 months and it was somewhere after 6 months when muscle development began to return to what I had in my late 30s. Sex drive has gone way up, so I hope you have a partner that can keep up. It is not a cure all for ED, but cialis and viagra are safe and the combination of testosterone, a good workout regimen, and PDE5 inhibitors can allow you to have sex like you did in your 30s.

There is a lot of good advice on this forum, but ultimately you and your prescriber are the best source of progress. Be patient, but is sounds you are a patient person and have all the pieces in place. I am sure you will do fine with it.

 

[Cataceous]

You might first consider less disruptive ways to raise testosterone, such as Natesto or enclomiphene. Regular TRT has a profound effect on various upstream hormones. At a minimum TRT suppresses GnRH, LH and FSH. It may also affect kisspeptin, progesterone, DHEA and pregnenolone. Although many men seem to do ok in spite of these effects, others end up experiencing problems with libido, sexual function, etc.

If you do proceed with TRT then at least consider physiological dosing. As a "skinny guy" you would likely find that 150 mg TC per week is much more than you need to attain healthy normal levels of testosterone. Consider 100 mg or less. Don't get caught up in the "more is better" mentality surrounding testosterone. More is not better. You're looking for the minimum dose that gives you symptom resolution and normal physiological levels.

 

[Vince]

Luckily you're 60. The age I started. Older men seem to do better on trt, then young.

 

[Grendl]

You might first consider less disruptive ways to raise testosterone, such as Natesto or enclomiphene. Regular TRT has a profound effect on various upstream hormones. At a minimum TRT suppresses GnRH, LH and FSH. It may also affect kisspeptin, progesterone, DHEA and pregnenolone. Although many men seem to do ok in spite of these effects, others end up experiencing problems with libido, sexual function, etc.

If you do proceed with TRT then at least consider physiological dosing. As a "skinny guy" you would likely find that 150 mg TC per week is much more than you need to attain healthy normal levels of testosterone. Consider 100 mg or less. Don't get caught up in the "more is better" mentality surrounding testosterone. More is not better. You're looking for the minimum dose that gives you symptom resolution and normal physiological levels.

Thank you Cataceous -- I appreciate your advice, and am trying to be mindful of the potential unanticipated and possibly unwelcome effects of supplementing with testosterone. Over the last year I've monitored what I think are the important biomarkers -- hormone, thyroid, lipids, blood panel, etc, and have tried to raise testosterone by managing stress, sleep, diet, exercise, relationships. I feel that I have most of these aspects managed as well as I possibly can, pre-retirement at least (I expect my stress levels to decline in a straight line with my income post retirement . So, I'm not sure what else I might do to raise test/achieve the desired physical outcomes. I am not familiar with Natesto or enclomiphene, will investigate both.

> consider physiological dosing.

This is very good advice, thank you. I've set up with a clinic, and their initial prescription seems to be the standard 200mg, weekly, test c -- I'd already decided to reduce that to 150mg (split into 2 doses per week), and had considered 100mg. It seems that some people have reported that a dose that 'low', in addition to shutting down their endogenous test production, resulted in lower overall test levels and worse symptoms -- so I was 'splitting the difference' with 150mg -- but I admit I had not factored in my relatively light weight. I need to give this more thought, thanks again.

 

[Grendl]

I started at 62 and am now 67. You are the perfect age to start and your reasons and expectations are sound. I started at 100mg per week and have moved up slowly to 150 per week. I do one shot per week and I keep it simple. No AI needed and the HCG is not needed, at least for me. Testiicle shrinkage is noticeable only to me. My wife of 34 years has never noticed any change, nor has my urologist on a recent exam. Get on a sound routine and play the long game. Energy was up around 2 months and it was somewhere after 6 months when muscle development began to return to what I had in my late 30s. Sex drive has gone way up, so I hope you have a partner that can keep up. It is not a cure all for ED, but cialis and viagra are safe and the combination of testosterone, a good workout regimen, and PDE5 inhibitors can allow you to have sex like you did in your 30s.

There is a lot of good advice on this forum, but ultimately you and your prescriber are the best source of progress. Be patient, but is sounds you are a patient person and have all the pieces in place. I am sure you will do fine with it.

Thank you Mountain Man, I appreciate your advice and first-person experience report -- this is very useful & encouraging to me. I'm also looking to 'keep it simple'. I need to consider starting at a lower initial dose as you did (100mg rather than 150mg) -- and possibly moving up gradually (over say 6-12 months) might be the best course. Thanks again.

 

[Grendl]

You may want to consider HCG. To keep testicle size.

It would be interesting to see your prelabs.

When I first started trt, I had to donate blood every 8 weeks, to keep my HCT in range. Thankfully after about 3 years my HCT has stabilized and I no longer have to donate blood.

Thanks Vince, I appreciate your advice. I've considered HCG, but decided for now to change only one variable (testosterone) then wait to see what the labs tell me in a few months. I'm a bit worried about HCT, currently level is in the middle of the reference range - hoping that won't be an issue. It's very interesting that your HCT stabilized over time, I didn't know that was possible.

 

[Golfboy307]

Welcome aboard! As a fellow "skinny runner guy", TRT has been a boon for my overall health and well being (especially sexually). I started at 47 and now am 53. I agree with all of the advice above. Wait and see on HCG. I found I did not need it. Also, reading posts here it seems hard to obtain right now. I am 5'10" 155 lbs and I get my total T in the 800 range with about 100mg per week split into 3 doses. Anything above that and I don't feel great. It will take months not weeks to tweak your protocol and achieve optimum results. But it is worth it. My HCT bumped up against 50 on weekly dosing and now rests comfortably in the 46 range. Make sure you are testing Free T, Sensitive E2, DHT and PSA as you go along. Best of luck!

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

You may want to consider HCG. To keep testicle size.

It would be interesting to see your prelabs.

When I first started trt, I had to donate blood every 8 weeks, to keep my HCT in range. Thankfully after about 3 years my HCT has stabilized and I no longer have to donate blood.

Does hcg do anything else for you besides Testicular size Vince?

 

[Cataceous]

... I've set up with a clinic, and their initial prescription seems to be the standard 200mg, weekly, test c -- I'd already decided to reduce that to 150mg (split into 2 doses per week), and had considered 100mg. It seems that some people have reported that a dose that 'low', in addition to shutting down their endogenous test production, resulted in lower overall test levels and worse symptoms -- so I was 'splitting the difference' with 150mg -- but I admit I had not factored in my relatively light weight. I need to give this more thought, thanks again.

I'm like a broken record on this point lately: 150 mg TC per week means an average of 15 mg testosterone per day. Average production for healthy young men is only 6-7 mg. Natural outliers go up to 9-10 mg.

Then there's the Xyosted product, which is simply injectable testosterone enanthate, comparable to cypionate. You start this product at 75 mg per week. Based on lab work you either stay there, increase to 100 mg per week, or decrease to 50 mg per week. There are no other dose options.

The point is, it would be very unusual for someone to have "lower overall test levels" at 100 mg TC per week. More likely it would be an illusion caused by a poor protocol, such as weekly injections of a standard product. This results in trough testosterone being a half to a third of peak levels. One could indeed feel worse with such fluctuations. Even twice-weekly dosing does not remove fluctuations in serum testosterone, though they are considerably less. Typically peak levels are going to be around 50% higher than trough levels.

 

[Vince]

Does hcg do anything else for you besides Testicular size Vince?

I started HCG on day one, 500 IU twice a week. So it's hard to tell besides testicle size, that it makes much of a difference. I'm sure it helps keep my E2 higher, which I need and hopefully helps me keep my strong libido.

 

[Grendl]

Welcome aboard! As a fellow "skinny runner guy", TRT has been a boon for my overall health and well being (especially sexually). I started at 47 and now am 53. I agree with all of the advice above. Wait and see on HCG. I found I did not need it. Also, reading posts here it seems hard to obtain right now. I am 5'10" 155 lbs and I get my total T in the 800 range with about 100mg per week split into 3 doses. Anything above that and I don't feel great. It will take months not weeks to tweak your protocol and achieve optimum results. But it is worth it. My HCT bumped up against 50 on weekly dosing and now rests comfortably in the 46 range. Make sure you are testing Free T, Sensitive E2, DHT and PSA as you go along. Best of luck!

Thanks Golfboy307, I very much appreciate the feedback. I'm a bit older than you but same height/weight, and your protocol & results sound great (I know everyone responds differently, but I imagine body type/mass are important). Can I ask how you schedule your doses? I have 200mg/ml test c, so something like .17ml, roughly spaced 3 times during the week? Thanks also for the advice on labs to watch - I plan to monitor your list plus lipid panel quarterly.

Most important question: Will TRT improve my golf? Man it's a tough game...

 

[Deleted member 16042]

I am of the same body type. EOD dosing of 26mg (91mg/week) of 200mg/ml T cyp. No AI, low dose of HCG. HCG currently on pause due to cancer drug interaction.

I too started at too high a dose when starting injections, 150mg/week dosed E3D. It was living Hell having to reduce dose and go through withdrawal getting it right from there over the course of many months. In retrospect if I was to do it again, I would have started on about 80mg/week dosed every 2 or 3 days, and if inadequate boost 2mg EOD at 6-8 week intervals with labs at each stage until I felt good.

Good luck.

 

[Grendl]

I'm like a broken record on this point lately: 150 mg TC per week means an average of 15 mg testosterone per day. Average production for healthy young men is only 6-7 mg. Natural outliers go up to 9-10 mg.

Then there's the Xyosted product, which is simply injectable testosterone enanthate, comparable to cypionate. You start this product at 75 mg per week. Based on lab work you either stay there, increase to 100 mg per week, or decrease to 50 mg per week. There are no other dose options.

The point is, it would be very unusual for someone to have "lower overall test levels" at 100 mg TC per week. More likely it would be an illusion caused by a poor protocol, such as weekly injections of a standard product. This results in trough testosterone being a half to a third of peak levels. One could indeed feel worse with such fluctuations. Even twice-weekly dosing does not remove fluctuations in serum testosterone, though they are considerably less. Typically peak levels are going to be around 50% higher than trough levels.

Thanks again Cataceous -- this is a huge help. I was working with an incorrect understanding of 'physiological vs supraphysiological' as (roughly) either less than or greater than 200mg/week -- I can see now that is wrong/incomplete.

 

[Grendl]

I am of the same body type. EOD dosing of 26mg (91mg/week) of 200mg/ml T cyp. No AI, low dose of HCG. HCG currently on pause due to cancer drug interaction.

I too started at too high a dose when starting injections, 150mg/week dosed E3D. It was living Hell having to reduce dose and go through withdrawal getting it right from there over the course of many months. In retrospect if I was to do it again, I would have started on about 80mg/week dosed every 2 or 3 days, and if inadequate boost 2mg EOD at 6-8 week intervals with labs at each stage until I felt good.

Good luck.

Thanks Blackhawk, I'm sorry you had to go through that, I appreciate your help and taking the time to pass along your experience, and I wish you the best with current health issues. The consensus seems to be that I was planning to start out way too high (even at 150mg, down from the 200mg script) -- I'm now thinking 80-100 might be a much better path.

This forum has already probably saved me from a poor initial protocol and maybe saved me months of difficulty while trying to figure this all out -- it's a great resource!

 

[HappyMooseEstes]

I am of the same body type. EOD dosing of 26mg (91mg/week) of 200mg/ml T cyp. No AI, low dose of HCG. HCG currently on pause due to cancer drug interaction.

I too started at too high a dose when starting injections, 150mg/week dosed E3D. It was living Hell having to reduce dose and go through withdrawal getting it right from there over the course of many months. In retrospect if I was to do it again, I would have started on about 80mg/week dosed every 2 or 3 days, and if inadequate boost 2mg EOD at 6-8 week intervals with labs at each stage until I felt good.

Good luck.

Hey Blackhawk. I have a long and complicated story but about 6-7 weeks ago I lowered my dose to 100 mg. a week and a half ago I switched to twice weekly injections 50 mg every 3.5 days about. It's been a bumpy ride to say the least. How much longer should I wait it out before I make adjustments. Some people says 4-6 weeks some people say 4-6 months. Was it up and down through your process?

 

[Keepfit1]

Hi All.

I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks, see where that puts me, adjust accordingly with an eye toward getting higher levels/no sides.

I'm a life long skinny-guy runner type athlete, have noticed in the last 5 years that pretty much anything physical I do (running, lifting, OCR, tennis, whatever) is just getting *hard* -- recovery times just get longer and longer, performance gets worse, and overall activities that used to make me happy now feel like work.

I'm mainly interested in TRT as a way to maybe allow me to continue to enjoy the physical stuff that I love doing -- it would be great if I could get another 10 years of running/lifting/sports, while recovering faster and enjoying it more.

All advice is appreciated, thanks.

As others have mentioned 150mg maybe too much but you will know from your labs, you could start at 100 or less and build up or lower it from 150 , as long as you are 75% up the range for T and FT you should benefit a lot , of course keep an eye on the other numbers like E and maybe DHT. I am 65 and been on T for 15 years, was on Gel 70mg a week equivelent, a Doc told me my numbers were too low so increased to 170 ie 100 Test Cyp a week and 70 of Gel, felt better for sure but my hairloss increased quickly and my BPH and PSA rose fast, so backing off now to 100. With us more mature guys ie oldish we need to keep an eye on the prostate, T can cause BPH which isnt fun. Maybe wise start lowish and increase slow.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Hey Blackhawk. I have a long and complicated story but about 6-7 weeks ago I lowered my dose to 100 mg. a week and a half ago I switched to twice weekly injections 50 mg every 3.5 days about. It's been a bumpy ride to say the least. How much longer should I wait it out before I make adjustments. Some people says 4-6 weeks some people say 4-6 months. Was it up and down through your process?

I had some rough times lowering dose. Those periods were not ups and downs but just felt bad for 2-6 weeks while the levels decreased. Then things started to level out. It takes me 2-3 months for things to really stabilize. My thinking is that when you lower a dose, it takes 4-6 weeks for your blood levels to stabilize at the new lower level, then quite a lot longer for the body to actually fully adapt to that level. And BTW, you are responding to my post from well over a year ago. I have significantly lowered dose since then.

I do not know anything about your history, labs etc so don't feel I can comment further. except to say if your ups and downs track with your dosage schedule, your twice a week might not be level enough for you.

 

[HappyMooseEstes]

I had some rough times lowering dose. Those periods were not ups and downs but just felt bad for 2-6 weeks while the levels decreased. Then things started to level out. It takes me 2-3 months for things to really stabilize. My thinking is that when you lower a dose, it takes 4-6 weeks for your blood levels to stabilize at the new lower level, then quite a lot longer for the body to actually fully adapt to that level. And BTW, you are responding to my post from well over a year ago. I have significantly lowered dose since then.

I do not know anything about your history, labs etc so don't feel I can comment further. except to say if your ups and downs track with your dosage schedule, your twice a week might not be level enough for you.

What dose and dosing frequency do you do now?