Does HCG promote excessive aromatization while on TRT?

[FrankUnderwood]

Quick question for the board and our esteemed Docs - Has anyone personally seen TRT with a healthy HCG dose (350iu or more twice weekly) stimulate/promote excess aromatization that would otherwise not occur if the HCG dose were either lowered or dropped altogether?

Reference - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC411596/

 

[Vince Carter]

On that subject where HCG can promote Aromatization is thru stim of the testes, in that environment the same aromatization occurs but is tougher to control in that specific testicular environment with an AI. That's paraphrased from Dr Saya. 350iu twice per week is probably on the high side though won't hurt anything necessarily, I think we've all toyed with dosing HCG and frequency and more isn't better for most guys. You only need keep the testes stim and alive, there's not much more to be gained using more HCG than that which is typically 250 2XW, or 100 daily.

 

[Vince]

It may be different for everyone, I'm a strong believer in using 500iu of HCG every 3 1/2 days. But the only way you know what work for you, is by experimenting.

 

[JPB]

Yes it often does exactly that

 

[JPB]

Your link to the study describes what happens very well, at least for me. In an environment where T levels are already saturated due to TRT, the main effect of the hCG is to stimulate aromatization. This is evident by blood testing after adding hCG. T levels actually declined a bit, and E levels went to high levels.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I doubt that adding 350-500 IU HCG twice per week to TRT increases estradiol by more than 10-20 %

Here is what happens with a large dose of 3000 IU per day for 3 days. Estradiol first peaks one day after first injection and then goes down even during the third day. So, there is a stabilization after the first dose. These levels are measured using the immunoasssay that overestimates estradiol, so probably visualize these values 30% lower (assumption).

If you have any doubt, do an experiment on yourself by measuring estradiol before and after 2 weeks on whatever dose you use.




Source: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/endocrj1954/22/4/22_4_287/_pdf

 

[Dr. John Crisler]

What he said.

I doubt that adding 350-500 IU HCG twice per week to TRT increases estradiol by more than 10-20 %

Here is what happens with a large dose of 3000 IU per day for 3 days. Estradiol first peaks one day after first injection and then goes down even during the third day. So, there is a stabilization after the first dose. These levels are measured using the immunoasssay that overestimates estradiol, so probably visualize these values 30% lower (assumption).

If you have any doubt, do an experiment on yourself by measuring estradiol before and after 2 weeks on whatever dose you use.


View attachment 2136

Source: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/endocrj1954/22/4/22_4_287/_pdf

 

[Weasel]

Wow that's very interesting Nelson and Doc. So even though HCG levels are rising as well as testosterone, E2 is actually falling. Basically the body is learning to adapt the higher androgen levels??

 

[Re-Ride]

Careful not to draw unfounded conclusions with this:
Standard Range
6/9/15 9/8/15 12/31/15 1/19/16 6/1/16
Estradiol (E2)
< OR = 29 pg/mL
83 H 50 34 H 41.9 A 27

Estadiol by LC/MS/MS dropped to 27 two weeks after withdrawal of hCG. But it was already trending down. I have been reporting what I interpreted to be adaptation for some time. I had found nothing in the literature. It was not being discussed in the hCG mono threads here last year.

 

[FrankUnderwood]

after withdrawal of HCG did you notice testicular shrinkage or pains?

 

[Vince]

after withdrawal of HCG did you notice testicular shrinkage or pains?

Most men that use HCG use it to keep full testicles, without it most men not all, testicles will shrink.

 

[Will Brink]

Quick question for the board and our esteemed Docs - Has anyone personally seen TRT with a healthy HCG dose (350iu or more twice weekly) stimulate/promote excess aromatization that would otherwise not occur if the HCG dose were either lowered or dropped altogether?

Reference - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC411596/

Excess, rarely, and they were always carrying high % of BF and or already borderline high E2 before the HCG. A slight bump, is common in my experience, but usually within acceptable ranges and have also seen some small bump in HDL, which makes some sense to it's relationship to E2. Responses to HCG are quite individual both subjectively and objectively. Personally, unless the man is concerned with nad size and fertility, I don't see a reason to automatically add HCG as some do, though I know there's some indication HCG has benefits unrelated to those main issues. Some men, find that big drop in sperm count a plus and feel fine on TRT mono therapy.

- Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

 

[CoastWatcher]

Excess, rarely, and they were always carrying high % of BF and or already borderline high E2 before the HCG. A slight bump, is common in my experience, but usually within acceptable ranges and have also seen some small bump in HDL, which makes some sense to it's relationship to E2. Responses to HCG are quite individual both subjectively and objectively. Personally, unless the man is concerned with nad size and fertility, I don't see a reason to automatically add HCG as some do, though I know there's some indication HCG has benefits unrelated to those main issues. Some men, find that big drop in sperm count a plus and feel fine on TRT mono therapy.

- Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

What Will references as "TRT mono therapy" is (I am told by my doctor) something that she is having more of her patients ask for over time. They find no reason to remain fertile, they accept testicular atrophy, and feel nothing in terms of the other hormonal benefits that hcg is supposed to be providing. I've abandoned hcg in the past for periods of time and always picked it back up, but don't find the case for it that compelling in regard to my own situation.

 

[at15]

keep it to 400-500 iu weekly total and it will do little to nothing for testosterone and estrogen. there seems to be some kind of breaking point around 700-800 iu weekly total where your getting a decent amount of testosterone production, and a just a bit extra e2.

we had that study with 200 mg enanthate weekly + hcg. where 125 iu EOD (437.5 weekly) did absolutely nothing for serum testosterone. placebo and 125 eod were very close. where as 250 eod and 500 eod there was a significant gain in testosterone.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

keep it to 400-500 iu weekly total and it will do little to nothing for testosterone and estrogen. there seems to be some kind of breaking point around 700-800 iu weekly total where your getting a decent amount of testosterone production, and a just a bit extra e2.

we had that study with 200 mg enanthate weekly + hcg. where 125 iu EOD (437.5 weekly) did absolutely nothing for serum testosterone. placebo and 125 eod were very close. where as 250 eod and 500 eod there was a significant gain in testosterone.

View attachment 4592

As is the case with reversing/preventing testicular atrophy. For those guys that do/will experience testicular atrophy and for whom hCG does mitigate said symptoms, I often tell them a cumulative weekly dose in the range of ~700-1000iu is typically necessary. As with everything, results vary and there are always outliers.